wanting to hear from 'natural' lifters

gruntjc · 07-28-2006, 02:32 AM

Hi all,

I’d like to hear from those of you who are using a DFHT (dual factor hypertrophy training routine and, more importantly, whether it has worked well for you.

For most of my training life (about 13 years) I have followed a standard type split that most trainers follow… ie. chest/shoulders/tri’s, back/bi’s, legs. I currently train about 3 days/week. I’m still natural and believe that this is all my body can handle.

I have been following a 2 way split (upper/lower) 3x a week for the last few months but I increasingly find it difficult to hit almost my entire upper body in a single workout. Bear in mind that I am only doing 1 compound movement for each major muscle….. nevertheless, it’s still pretty taxing.

I recently read that Dorian Yates followed a similar split BEFORE he competed in his first Olympia.

A number of articles written on DFHT state that the idea of beating the crap out of a muscle once a week , then giving it a week to recover is not the best way to go.

After years of training one thing that I’ve learnt is that there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat. So, by asking everyone on this board what has worked for them, I will get 1000 different answers.

There’s no use comparing myself to drug assisted trainees because I’m not on the gear (yet), so I’m particularly interested to hear from those of you who are still natural…. In fact, those who have NEVER taken AAS.

Also, I’ve been doing some reading on Bill Starr’s 5x5. I’ve incorporated some of his ideas into my routine, but Bill also suggests doing a 3 day/week split that includes doing squats 3x a week. Again, I’m interested to hear from anyone who has tried Starr’s 5x5.

**powerman2000** · 07-28-2006, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gruntjc

Hi all,

I’d like to hear from those of you who are using a DFHT (dual factor hypertrophy training routine and, more importantly, whether it has worked well for you.

For most of my training life (about 13 years) I have followed a standard type split that most trainers follow… ie. chest/shoulders/tri’s, back/bi’s, legs. I currently train about 3 days/week. I’m still natural and believe that this is all my body can handle.

I have been following a 2 way split (upper/lower) 3x a week for the last few months but I increasingly find it difficult to hit almost my entire upper body in a single workout. Bear in mind that I am only doing 1 compound movement for each major muscle….. nevertheless, it’s still pretty taxing.

I recently read that Dorian Yates followed a similar split BEFORE he competed in his first Olympia.

A number of articles written on DFHT state that the idea of beating the crap out of a muscle once a week , then giving it a week to recover is not the best way to go.

After years of training one thing that I’ve learnt is that there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat. So, by asking everyone on this board what has worked for them, I will get 1000 different answers.

There’s no use comparing myself to drug assisted trainees because I’m not on the gear (yet), so I’m particularly interested to hear from those of you who are still natural…. In fact, those who have NEVER taken AAS.

Also, I’ve been doing some reading on Bill Starr’s 5x5. I’ve incorporated some of his ideas into my routine, but Bill also suggests doing a 3 day/week split that includes doing squats 3x a week. Again, I’m interested to hear from anyone who has tried Starr’s 5x5.

Supercompensation, or single factor theory, is fine for any n00b or drug assisted trainees. But, if you are natural and a more advanced lifter with a couple of years or more training under your belt, then that tired dogma of 1x every 7 days for each muscle will leave you stagnated for sure. It left me that way for too many years that I even want to think about. It wasn't until I switched to a Dual Factor Theory that I started making slow, but steady gains again. Afterall, I'm 42 years old and have been lifting for more than half of my life so I wasn't expecting to need a new wardrobe to accommodate all of my huge new muscles.

It's funny that you mentioned Bill Starr's 5x5 since I am going to start his advanced program next Monday. I can hardly wait.

I noticed that you didn't mention anything about deloading for fatigue recovery. This phase is just as critical as any other and without a proper deload then you will certainly run into some problems.

gruntjc · 07-28-2006, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Supercompensation, or single factor theory, is fine for any n00b or drug assisted trainees. But, if you are natural and a more advanced lifter with a couple of years or more training under your belt, then that tired dogma of 1x every 7 days for each muscle will leave you stagnated for sure. It left me that way for too many years that I even want to think about. It wasn't until I switched to a Dual Factor Theory that I started making slow, but steady gains again. Afterall, I'm 42 years old and have been lifting for more than half of my life so I wasn't expecting to need a new wardrobe to accommodate all of my huge new muscles.

It's funny that you mentioned Bill Starr's 5x5 since I am going to start his advanced program next Monday. I can hardly wait.

I noticed that you didn't mention anything about deloading for fatigue recovery. This phase is just as critical as any other and without a proper deload then you will certainly run into some problems.

true powerman... but isnt it true that DFHT is basically DC without the rest pausing???

DC talks about doing one of two splits...

M/W/F
M - chest/sh/tri/back
W - legs/bis
F - chest/sh/tri/back

OR

M/T/T/F
M - Ch/Sh/Tri
T - Back/Bi

T - Legs/Hams
F - Ch/Sh/Tri

in any event.... all muscle groups get worked more than once every 7 days.

are we talking about the same thing here??

interested to hear what Bill star's advanced program is.... can you elaborate please?

**powerman2000** · 07-30-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gruntjc

interested to hear what Bill star's advanced program is.... can you elaborate please?

Here is an outline of the loading phase.

LOADING

Volume Phase
Weeks 1-4

Monday
Squat 5x5
Bench 1x5
Row 1x5

Wednesday
Squat 5x5 (10-20% < than Monday)
Deadlift 5x5
Military or Incline 5x5
Pull-ups or Chins 5x5

Friday
Squat 1x5
Bench 5x5
Row 5x5

As you can see this is a periodized program.
I am planning on dropping 20% in load during squats on Wednesdays.

I will be doing some assitance exercise too. Abs and calves on Mon. and Weds.
Triceps and Biceps on Friday only. One exercise a piece.

0311 · 08-03-2006, 07:53 AM

DFHT and Bill Starr's 5 x 5 worked great for me. I did that program after I ran Bill Starr's 5x5 (volume, deload, intensity phases) because they fit terrific together. The only problem I see people have with it is that they go too heavy with DFHT. For instance, when the program's upper 1 day calls for 4 x 10 barbell presses, it means hit all 4 x 10, with the last set being the difficult one. I started off heavy with 250 doing 4 x 8 and wondering why I felt dead after three exercises.

DFHT is modelled after Westside barbell (loosely). You can see two heavy days (ME) and two RE days. Lots of lower back work which echoes powerlifting. I'm getting personally trained by Matt Reynolds now and can say he definately knows his shit! I've since been converted to powerlifting with a modified westside routine.

For the Bill Starr's 5x5, the one Powerman posted was constructed by Madcow, which has a lesser amount of volume with all the pyramid schemes. I ran the one Reynolds made which has less pyramids and more volume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Reynolds

The 5X5:

Monday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (same weight)
Benching 5x5 (flat, close grip or regular)(same weight)
JS Rows 5x5 (same weight)
Accessory (low volume triceps and abs)

Wednesday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (reduced 15-20% from Monday) or Front Squats 5x5
Standing Military Press 5x5 (same weight)
Deadlifts 5x5 (same weight) (if you pull 2.5x bodyweight do 3x5)
Pull ups 5x5 (use weight if you need it)
Accessory (biceps and abs)

Friday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (working up each set)
Benching 5x5 (flat or incline)(same weight)
Rows 5x5 (same weight)
Accessory (low volume triceps and abs)

The idea is simple: pick a weight you can do for 5 sets of 5, and if you complete all the sets and reps, then next time bump the weight up 5 or 10 pounds.

Before beginning the program it is important to establish 1 rep maxes for the squat, bench press, military press, and deadlift, and 5 rep maxes for the squat, bench press, rows, military press, and deadlifts.

The first week, it is important to begin very conservatively and prepare to set new 5 rep maxes on about the 4th-6th week, rather than the 1st or 2nd week. It will take some time for your body to grow accustomed to training this way, and in the beginning you’re gonna be sore as hell.

If you get all the sets and reps, then you increase the weight (5-10lbs) for the next week, and if not, you keep the weight the same.

Try and set new 5 rep maxes on weeks 4-6 for beginners , and weeks 3-4 for veterans and then move to a 3x3 for 2x per week.

Run the 3x3 for 2-3 weeks, drop the squatting frequency to 2x per week (or even every 4-5 days if you need the additional recovery), and try setting records on the 4th or 5th workout. (Also, weight increase are the important thing here).

Then cycle down to 1 set of 3 for 2 or 3 workouts, and maybe even go for a max single at the end.

So basically what you get is a 4-6 week prep phase, followed by a 3-5 week peaking phase.

One point – during the initial phase where 5x5 is being used you MUST stick to the required volume and frequency. Back off the weight if you have to, but always get in all 5 sets of 5.

Olympic squatting three times a week got my legs THICK. Lots of people cry out "Heresy" with all the squatting and deadlifting in between but the design prevents you from overtraining. Of course the idea is to OVERREACH within 4 weeks time, then use a deload week for full body recovery. I used A2G front squats for Wednesday's 20% less squats. Worked out great.

I've ran 1 full cycle of 5x5 (volume, intensity) followed by DFHT which I gained 7 lbs on, and a ton of strength. Bench press went up from 365 to 405 by the end. I also experimented with running back to back Volume phases of the 5x5 (seperated by a deload) which was also very productive. All in all, these 2 programs FOR ME yielded the best results I've ever had. DFHT especially was what got me into powerlifting and getting personally trained by him.

I know Elitefitness has a huge thread on all this Bill Starr shit..I made one with TONS of info HERE. I recommend reading through this one only because the one at Elitefitness is up to 60 pages last time I checked with a lot of questions and all the useful info is burried. :bting:

Good luck!

Cookie Dough · 08-04-2006, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Supercompensation, or single factor theory, is fine for any n00b or drug assisted trainees. But, if you are natural and a more advanced lifter with a couple of years or more training under your belt, then that tired dogma of 1x every 7 days for each muscle will leave you stagnated for sure. It left me that way for too many years that I even want to think about. It wasn't until I switched to a Dual Factor Theory that I started making slow, but steady gains again. Afterall, I'm 42 years old and have been lifting for more than half of my life so I wasn't expecting to need a new wardrobe to accommodate all of my huge new muscles.

It's funny that you mentioned Bill Starr's 5x5 since I am going to start his advanced program next Monday. I can hardly wait.

I noticed that you didn't mention anything about deloading for fatigue recovery. This phase is just as critical as any other and without a proper deload then you will certainly run into some problems.

You found that training each bodypart once a week wasnt for you ? I have been doing that for yrs and made good gains but now looking for something else as stagnant also. I go to the gym at off hours like heading there now so with this routine train only 3 days a week and avoid the crowds .
I am in my 30s . 40s is nothing for making gains there is a guy that trains at the gym I go to he is a Vietnam vet . Imagine late 50s early 60s age wise only on paper as he is built like someone in his 20s on juice and this guy is natural .
Plenty of guys in their 50s to just as built . They all seem to subscribe to doing each bodypart once a week only . It worked for me for awhile but now stagnant .
I have no idea what workout routine you guys are talking about but going to see if I can find out info on it might be interesting . I do need weekends free as my wife and I go away ,etc .

**powerman2000** · 08-04-2006, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Dough

You found that training each bodypart once a week wasnt for you ? I have been doing that for yrs and made good gains but now looking for something else as stagnant also. I go to the gym at off hours like heading there now so with this routine train only 3 days a week and avoid the crowds .
I am in my 30s . 40s is nothing for making gains there is a guy that trains at the gym I go to he is a Vietnam vet . Imagine late 50s early 60s age wise only on paper as he is built like someone in his 20s on juice and this guy is natural .
Plenty of guys in their 50s to just as built . They all seem to subscribe to doing each bodypart once a week only . It worked for me for awhile but now stagnant .
I have no idea what workout routine you guys are talking about but going to see if I can find out info on it might be interesting . I do need weekends free as my wife and I go away ,etc .

Unless you are close friends with this vietnam vet guy then why would you believe he isn't using any AAS?

If he is natural and he is still only training everything only 1x per 7 days then he isn't growing anymore muscle. He is just maintaining what he has. There comes a point in everyone's training life where doing the same protocol week after week with little to no changes will result in less and less results until the results stop altogether. That is not my opinion, it's just a fact.

Cookie Dough · 08-05-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Unless you are close friends with this vietnam vet guy then why would you believe he isn't using any AAS?

If he is natural and he is still only training everything only 1x per 7 days then he isn't growing anymore muscle. He is just maintaining what he has. There comes a point in everyone's training life where doing the same protocol week after week with little to no changes will result in less and less results until the results stop altogether. That is not my opinion, it's just a fact.

We arent close friends as I have no friends . You can tell he is natural . He was always built .
He has been built since last 5 yrs when I joined that gym . Very very easy going as delightful as I am . Granted he could be on AAS but I doubt it .

I know you can EASILY put on size if you train each bodypart once every 7 days infact many that couldnt put on size before have training that way.

Thats the norm workout in my Gym and norm doesnt make it right but it works well . In my case I hit a sticking point . But my weekends are surfing ,etc so looking for another routine for awhile problem is no weekends .

I do agree that if you get 'used" to same routine you dont grow you become stagnant but training a muscle once a week isnt same thing.
I will go back to that as for me worked great for yrs but again for now need a change .

07-28-2006, 02:32 AM	#1
gruntjc Amateur Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 33 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	wanting to hear from 'natural' lifters Hi all, I’d like to hear from those of you who are using a DFHT (dual factor hypertrophy training routine and, more importantly, whether it has worked well for you. For most of my training life (about 13 years) I have followed a standard type split that most trainers follow… ie. chest/shoulders/tri’s, back/bi’s, legs. I currently train about 3 days/week. I’m still natural and believe that this is all my body can handle. I have been following a 2 way split (upper/lower) 3x a week for the last few months but I increasingly find it difficult to hit almost my entire upper body in a single workout. Bear in mind that I am only doing 1 compound movement for each major muscle….. nevertheless, it’s still pretty taxing. I recently read that Dorian Yates followed a similar split BEFORE he competed in his first Olympia. A number of articles written on DFHT state that the idea of beating the crap out of a muscle once a week , then giving it a week to recover is not the best way to go. After years of training one thing that I’ve learnt is that there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat. So, by asking everyone on this board what has worked for them, I will get 1000 different answers. There’s no use comparing myself to drug assisted trainees because I’m not on the gear (yet), so I’m particularly interested to hear from those of you who are still natural…. In fact, those who have NEVER taken AAS. Also, I’ve been doing some reading on Bill Starr’s 5x5. I’ve incorporated some of his ideas into my routine, but Bill also suggests doing a 3 day/week split that includes doing squats 3x a week. Again, I’m interested to hear from anyone who has tried Starr’s 5x5.

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