So, what do you think is the best Hypertrophy routine?

corvettecris · 02-13-2006, 04:18 PM

I have seen many routines over the years, from my highschool upper/lower splits, to the ones from the juicer mags, to 5x5. I have tried a few, but for the most part, I have always just winged it, usually with some sort of split. But, I think I am getting to the point where just winging it isn't working so well anymore. I am currently trying HST, and I'm just not super-duper happy with it, yet.

I was curious: in your opinions, what programs you think are optimal for hypertrophy in experienced lifters?

**Grunt76** · 02-13-2006, 04:42 PM

Provided diet is GOOD, I mean real good, I'd like to suggest you try what I do, maybe with some variations:

"week" 1:

"week" 2:

+ and = are supersets, rest only after the second one.

* are single-sided sets for which the number of sets or reps was doubled on the sheet to allow for proper time-elapsed computation.

This workout is designed to maximize hGH output while allowing for a maximum hypertrophy stimulus and being short enough to allow for aerobics to be done in the same session. In addition, the compound-setting and super-setting optimizes the workout for cardiovascular training as well.

I find it is about the best routine I have done in my many years of researching and making programs. Of course, I'm always looking to learn something new, so if someone has something else to suggest, I'm a taker. Spytech also has a pretty kick-ass routine, I suggest you check that out too. :nosthumbs

corvettecris · 02-13-2006, 05:11 PM

That looks almost exactly like my old split! I got great gains on it, but after they started slowing down, I started looking for the next big thing...

How do you choose your weight progression on this? I use to work to failure or close to it almost every time. I have since learned that is not optimal.

How is TUT measured, in seconds or counts or something?

**Grunt76** · 02-13-2006, 05:29 PM

TUT = seconds. I do 5 eccentric, 1 concentric. I hear doing 3/3 is a pretty different stimulus, too, although I haven't tried that yet. I go to failure every set. If I can do my 8 reps, I add a little weight. More often than not, I attempt 5-10 lbs more than last workout's highest weight on my second set. If I succeed in doing my 8, that becomes my "normal" working weight and the following week I'll be trying 5lbs more, and so on...

**skelooth** · 02-13-2006, 06:51 PM

I think the optimal hypertrophy program is the one that works best for YOU. No two people will respond the same to a routine, nor will they remain responsive to it for the same length of time.

Over simplified and unhelpful, i know

A_N_91 · 02-13-2006, 07:10 PM

I think at first, until you get to around 200-230+, doing a "simple" routine like 5x5 is good. It's not really simple because of the periodization and the science behind it but in a way it could be simple because only 3-4 lifts are performed.

**Aeternitatis** · 02-13-2006, 10:25 PM

Some general guidelines for maximum muscle growth:

TUT= 1 second concentric, 4 second eccentric

*Never lift weights two days in a row
*Never do cardio before weight lifting or immediately after
*Limit workouts to 45 minutes
*Compound movements before isolation
*Intensity over volume
*1-1.5 minutes rests between sets
*6-9 reps per set
*lift to technical failure 3/4 of the time

That's it for now. Obviously it doesn't include diet which is extremely important. Want more? You can pay me for it

! I am a personal trainer after all. Can't be giving away all my secrets.

A_N_91 · 02-13-2006, 10:26 PM

All those things I agree 100% but why not lift weights 2 days in a row?

corvettecris · 02-14-2006, 04:48 AM

I guess the biggest thing I am having problems with is figuring out a good method of simplified periodization and weight progression. Like I said, I use to just wing it. I am kindof looking for a program that helps you set up a program that helps dictate what weight to use, and for how many reps.

I liked HST because it used science to help eliminate guesswork. It also focused on compounds for good mass gains, and actually helped me spend less time in the gym. Yay.

What I didn't like is the just general felling of low intesnity. The weights, half the time, are just so light, it is hard for me to be 'intense'. With my old split, very similar to Grunt76's, I just kept a detaied log, and used it to choose a weight that I could do for 3-4 sets in my desired rep range (usually 6-10 for 4 weeks, then 12-15 for 5 weeks). I'd always work to failure, rest 1-2 minutes, ant then repeat. Every few workouts, I'd do some forced reps, partials, or negatives to really blast myself. I was sore for a couple days usually, but with each muscle group only being hit once a week, it posed no real problems, as recovery time was ample. I just recently stopped this type of training because after lots of reading, I got the impression that this type of training is not optimal for hypertrophy. Do you think this is true? I got good gains from it, but all of this was after a 4 month gym layoff, and I figured they might ust be noob gains and muscle memory. Sure enough, once I surpassed my old weight/measurements, the gains slowed way down, and I only put on about 8 lbs more than my previous max weight or 195 lbs. Now, after losing a little fat, I am back to 198 (after hitting 203).

corvettecris · 02-14-2006, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_N_91

I think at first, until you get to around 200-230+, doing a "simple" routine like 5x5 is good. It's not really simple because of the periodization and the science behind it but in a way it could be simple because only 3-4 lifts are performed.

Are you talking about this program?

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...odized_5x5.htm

corvettecris · 02-14-2006, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt76

Spytech also has a pretty kick-ass routine, I suggest you check that out too. :nosthumbs

I just finished reading this routine, and all I can say is 'WOAH'. Yery simple to understand, and it looks like if it doesn't create an environment for hypertrophy, nothing will. Anyone tried this?

Oh, and he lists 'BB Rows' as one of the lifts. Is this just your standard 'bent-over row'?

**powerman2000** · 02-14-2006, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeternitatis

*Never lift weights two days in a row

*Never do cardio before weight lifting or immediately after

*Limit workouts to 45 minutes

*Compound movements before isolation

*Intensity over volume

*1-1.5 minutes rests between sets :nosthumbs
*6-9 reps per set

*lift to technical failure 3/4 of the time

IMHO.

corvettecris · 02-14-2006, 08:09 AM

I hate to be a pain in the @$$ powerman, but what is your suggestion? I am mainly interested in your opinion on training to failure.

**powerman2000** · 02-14-2006, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corvettecris

I hate to be a pain in the @$$ powerman, but what is your suggestion? I am mainly interested in your opinion on training to failure.

You're not being a pain in the ass.

It has been proven that training to failure is unnecessary and may only result in over taxing your CNS. I still take an occasional set to failure, but I definitely don't make a habit of doing that.

In most cases if you use 80-85% of your max weight for any amount of reps, that will be enough to recruit every muscle fiber that you are training.

So, to show an example, let's say that you can Incline Press 200 lbs for 10 reps and that is your absolute maximum that you can do before you reach muscular failure.

Now, if you use 170 lbs and perform 10 reps on the Incline press, you'll have caused the same amount of stimulation for hypertrophy that you would have using 200 lbs. I don't know about you, but when I take a set to failure, it takes a lot more for me to recover. That means longer rest periods between sets or a much larger drop in weight lifted during my sets of any particular exercise.

It's not really a bad thing, it's just not necessary and MAY lead a person to a state of overtraining.

A lot of good info here for you to digest. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=634720

**Aeternitatis** · 02-14-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_N_91

All those things I agree 100% but why not lift weights 2 days in a row?

To more fully take advantage of anabolic hormone rebound. I think too many people are used to taking the weekends off so they cram all their workouts into the 5 day work week. Some would say Mon,Tues,Thurs,Fri would be the best routine cause you get 4 days "on". Well, if you workout every other day, you still get 4 days on per every 7 days. It's the same amount a work with better recovery.

**Grunt76** · 02-14-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corvettecris

I just finished reading this routine, and all I can say is 'WOAH'. Yery simple to understand, and it looks like if it doesn't create an environment for hypertrophy, nothing will. Anyone tried this?

Oh, and he lists 'BB Rows' as one of the lifts. Is this just your standard 'bent-over row'?

There are no BB rows. There's DB rows and also wide-grip cable rows with hands above the bar. Of course T-bar can be replaced with bent-overs, no problem.

I find your comments very interesting, powerman2000 because actually, taking all these supersets to failure makes for a HARD workout. Often, my heartbeat goes to 100% theoretical max quite a few times during the workout and even ABOVE that on leg day... :excorcist

I think I'mma try the sub-failure thing for a little while in a couple weeks.

**Aeternitatis** · 02-14-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

IMHO.

Well allow me to explain why.

TUT= 1 second concentric, 4 second eccentric (Explosive concentric, slow controlled eccentric because that is a most natural movement taking advantage of the higher level of muscle tension that occurs during eccentric movements. Eccentric lfiting is more metabolically efficient allowing more volume in less time. Finally, without getting too into it, the eccentric phase is more anabolic. But that doesn't mean you can neglet concentric.)

*Never lift weights two days in a row (This is a generalizatio but... Because this better takes advantage of the anabolic rebound. T-levels peak 24-48 hours after a workout. You wanna hit the iron again somewhere in-between.)

*Never do cardio before weight lifting or immediately after (We all know why)

*Limit workouts to 45 minutes (We all know that intense exercise spurs GH release. So, during our workout, growth hormone peaks from 20-50 minutes... then drastically drops. However, all this time cortisol is slowly climbing and climbing. You want to end your workout where these two hormones intersect. Usually 45-60 minutes. Furthermore, with increased duration comes decreased energy. If you can't function at maximal levels, what's the point?)

*Compound movements before isolation (More efficient, more anabolic.)

*Intensity over volume (What I'm saying is you want to do more in the least amount of time. There's no sense in doing set after set of a weight that isn't challenging, you aren't creating any anabolic impetus. As volume goes up, even when effort is low, you start to see all sorts negative effects such as suppressed testosterone and thyroid levels.)

*1-1.5 minutes rests between sets

*6-9 reps per set (Obviously this is just a generalization, but it is within this rep range that one can make the most of local and systemic adaptation repsonses.)

*lift to technical failure 3/4 of the time (Don't confuse this with cheating to get an extra rep. I'm talking failure to the point where form is no longer perfect. It is perfectly feasible to workout with such intensity when duration is lower and recovery time is higher. Furthermore, 3/4 of the time means 3 out of 4 workouts. On the 4th workout you do not go to failure.)

**Aeternitatis** · 02-14-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_N_91

doing a "simple" routine like 5x5 is good. It's not really simple because of the periodization and the science behind it but in a way it could be simple because only 3-4 lifts are performed.

I agree with this completely.

Some of my favorite articles relating to 5X5 training:
http://bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler73.htm
http://bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler74.htm

The 4 month workout outlined at the end of article 2 is incredible. Truly one of the best ever.

corvettecris · 02-14-2006, 04:42 PM

I hate to dilute this thread with an O/T question, but I also have a question about targeting an area of the body while on one of these programs like 5x5 or Spytech's. My lat width is really my weak point right now, I'd say, so when choosing my back exercises, what would be the optimal lifts to pick to target width? I have always used weighted chins as my staple lift, along with TBar, Nautlius, or Cable Rows (usually w/ V Bar). Is the grip (pronated, supinated, reverse, wide, narrow, etc) important also?

Here is a pic:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30...ecris/back.jpg

02-13-2006, 04:18 PM	#1
corvettecris New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Eweesay Posts: 16 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	So, what do you think is the best Hypertrophy routine? I have seen many routines over the years, from my highschool upper/lower splits, to the ones from the juicer mags, to 5x5. I have tried a few, but for the most part, I have always just winged it, usually with some sort of split. But, I think I am getting to the point where just winging it isn't working so well anymore. I am currently trying HST, and I'm just not super-duper happy with it, yet. I was curious: in your opinions, what programs you think are optimal for hypertrophy in experienced lifters?

02-13-2006, 06:51 PM	#5
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,198 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 156	I think the optimal hypertrophy program is the one that works best for YOU. No two people will respond the same to a routine, nor will they remain responsive to it for the same length of time. Over simplified and unhelpful, i know __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

02-13-2006, 10:25 PM	#7
Aeternitatis The Alchemist Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Delirium, Tremens Posts: 173 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 5	Some general guidelines for maximum muscle growth: TUT= 1 second concentric, 4 second eccentric Never lift weights two days in a row Never do cardio before weight lifting or immediately after Limit workouts to 45 minutes Compound movements before isolation Intensity over volume 1-1.5 minutes rests between sets 6-9 reps per set lift to technical failure 3/4 of the time That's it for now. Obviously it doesn't include diet which is extremely important. Want more? You can pay me for it ! I am a personal trainer after all. Can't be giving away all my secrets. __________________ No longer a rep for MN

02-13-2006, 05:11 PM	#3
corvettecris New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Eweesay Posts: 16 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	That looks almost exactly like my old split! I got great gains on it, but after they started slowing down, I started looking for the next big thing... How do you choose your weight progression on this? I use to work to failure or close to it almost every time. I have since learned that is not optimal. How is TUT measured, in seconds or counts or something?

02-13-2006, 07:10 PM	#6
A_N_91 Pro Stature Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 849 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	I think at first, until you get to around 200-230+, doing a "simple" routine like 5x5 is good. It's not really simple because of the periodization and the science behind it but in a way it could be simple because only 3-4 lifts are performed.

02-13-2006, 10:26 PM	#8
A_N_91 Pro Stature Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 849 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	All those things I agree 100% but why not lift weights 2 days in a row?

02-14-2006, 04:48 AM	#9
corvettecris New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Eweesay Posts: 16 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	I guess the biggest thing I am having problems with is figuring out a good method of simplified periodization and weight progression. Like I said, I use to just wing it. I am kindof looking for a program that helps you set up a program that helps dictate what weight to use, and for how many reps. I liked HST because it used science to help eliminate guesswork. It also focused on compounds for good mass gains, and actually helped me spend less time in the gym. Yay. What I didn't like is the just general felling of low intesnity. The weights, half the time, are just so light, it is hard for me to be 'intense'. With my old split, very similar to Grunt76's, I just kept a detaied log, and used it to choose a weight that I could do for 3-4 sets in my desired rep range (usually 6-10 for 4 weeks, then 12-15 for 5 weeks). I'd always work to failure, rest 1-2 minutes, ant then repeat. Every few workouts, I'd do some forced reps, partials, or negatives to really blast myself. I was sore for a couple days usually, but with each muscle group only being hit once a week, it posed no real problems, as recovery time was ample. I just recently stopped this type of training because after lots of reading, I got the impression that this type of training is not optimal for hypertrophy. Do you think this is true? I got good gains from it, but all of this was after a 4 month gym layoff, and I figured they might ust be noob gains and muscle memory. Sure enough, once I surpassed my old weight/measurements, the gains slowed way down, and I only put on about 8 lbs more than my previous max weight or 195 lbs. Now, after losing a little fat, I am back to 198 (after hitting 203).

02-14-2006, 08:09 AM	#13
corvettecris New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Eweesay Posts: 16 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	I hate to be a pain in the @$$ powerman, but what is your suggestion? I am mainly interested in your opinion on training to failure.