Jakl

I am done with my cutting cycle this week. I will take a short break and come back with a mass cycle. This is the first time I have all you experienced people to ask this, so here goes.

For mass I know you want to lift heavy and for low reps. So if I were to do 4 sets of 8 reps, how should the weight progression look? For example should it go…

(A)
1. 100lbs/8 reps
2. 110lbs/8 reps
3. 120lbs/8 reps
4. 130lbs/8 reps

Or (B)….
1. 130lbs/8 reps
2. 120lbs/8 reps
3. 110lbs/8 reps
4. 100lbs/8 reps

Or (C)….
1. 130lbs/8 reps
2. 130lbs/to fail
3. 120lbs/to fail
4. 110lbs/to fail

Jakl

oops I ment to put this in the Training section..... I will ask to have it moved.

DJSTARER

many people pyramid light to heavy... for the sake of proper warm up and increased tension.

Personally, I (after a good warm-up set) like to do my heaviest set first. This insures I keep my strength up week in and week out because I am freshest in my first set.

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Current Stats:
474 Squat
601 Deadlift
320 Bench


Goals for next training cycle:

500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

CDB

You might want to check out the Max Stimulation routine. I haven't tried it myself yet, but I trust the guy who came up with it. If you want to check it out it's here: Max Stimulation. It follows a lot of the HST principles, he's got a specific exercise layout to help build strength and a way of doing reps to limit fatigue as well. I'm gonna give it a shot after I get done with my current 5x5.

Nothing to buy either. There's a free ebook he's circulating too with more in depth information as well.

powerman2000

I can see some fundamental mistakes and misgivings in that Max Stimulation routine. It has too many things that just defies what science and subject observation has already proven to us.

Here are just a few examples that I would take exception with:

The most erroneous concept the writer presents is that of the M-Time. This is truly a bizarre concept. It flys in the face of everything we already know about the TUT principle.

The volume is highly inadequate and I find that to be very ironic since the author calls his protocol "Max Stimulation".

There is more, but the last one that I will address is his idea that our biceps and triceps will receive enough stimuli from the other compound exercises to obtain optimal growth and that we don't need any direct exercises to do this. That is like saying we can have the best calves possible by only performing squats and leg presses. Sorry, I just don't think so.

Max Stimulation is anything but, and it's just another spin on a very weak HST idea.

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BobThePotato

:boink1:

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Jeff Rage

Definately no to C.

Another option is to do the same weight for each set (after warm up.)

I woudn't consdier 8 reps being "low."

bubba g

For mass lifting heavy for low reps is not optimal... that is geared more towards strength.. 8 reps would get a combination of the two, but 10 - 12 reps is a great range for building mass....

Some people grow better on lower reps, but I think most grow best on higher reps... 10-12 reps also decreses your chance of getting injured.

Trick D

I would try a five rep workout... where you do 5 reps (extremely heavy) for 4-5 sets per major exercise... It worked for me to gain strength and as long as you eat right that should really put some muscle on your frame, definitely if you are an ecto like me.

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DarkFalcon

If you can do the same 8 reps after adding 30lbs to the bar as you did on the first set your not getting anything out of the first set. I like half pyramiding some go heavy first which is best but also gives the highest risk of injury but starting higher rep and working down is almost as good and will allow your muscles to warm up to the heaviest loads. So a good set would look like this..

1. 100x10reps
2. 110x8 reps
3. 120x6 reps
4 130x4 reps

Another very good mass and strength building routine is 5x5. I set all kinds of personal best's using it.

Jakl

5x5 is that 5 sets and 5 reps? Thank you all for your input by the way.

Jakl

I am torn between Bubba and Trick D’s advice. I have read and been advised for as long as I can remember that heavy as possible for low reps built mass. So I could have just gone with that but during my last 6 week cycle I read on here somewhere that some people respond better to high reps, due to the amount of slow twitch fibers the muscle is made up of. I always (and I mean always) seem to get just ok results for all the hard work I put in. I am that guy in your gym that is obviously working his ass off. But when I increased my reps from 10 to 15 I all of a sudden broke through some barrier. I know I am bigger than I have ever been and I was really trying to cut or lean out a bit. I did cut up and lean out but much to my surprise I also gained a good amount of muscle. This next cycle my goal is to put on some mass to work with. So you see I am torn. Trick D appeals to everything I have ever heard or read. But my last cycle has me wondering if I am one of those people that higher reps work better for like Bubba is advising. BTW I love this forum and all your advice. I am more in tune with my body than I have ever been because of the different threads here and hearing what works for each of you.

Trick D

I'm glad you like the site. the thing about lifting is that different things worked for different people, and it takes years sometimes to see what works best for your body... My plan is definitely for strength and has helped me in the past... I do 8-10 reps for arms, shoulders, etc... but for bodyparts like back, chest, legs, etc I say the fewer the better after you do some workup sets. For chest I am just concentrating on flat bench and incline bench bringing my strength up in those... It has really helped... but you should always cycle. I wouldn't do my 5 reps scheme for more than 6 weeks or so... then change to a higher volume training.

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CDB

Actually it doesn't. He agrues quite effectively in the ebook and on the site that the constant tension applied during a regular set impedes blood flow, contributing to fatigue and severely dampening mTor singaling. With his method you (theoretically) end up with the same or greater TUT and the same or more energy turn over which seems to be the basic benefit of TUT, the ATP/ADP turnover rates. This is something that is addressed in the ebook and also on the Q&A in the site's forums, basically the fatigue from constant tension sets actually limits your ability to achieve adequate TUT or energy turnover, and the metabolic cost of constant tension doesn't incur any benefit to hypertrophy that you don't get from tension alone.

He also agrues quite effectively that volume is not the necessary stimulation. Not to mention that the volume is high when you look at it, especially for your average trainee. You're getting a total of 80 reps a week per muslce group, more with the supersets in the routine as well. That's more than some Max OT workouts I've seen, just spread out over the week to keep signalling frequent. Proper use of the fatigue management rep technique conceivably will allow you to get volume a lot higher than most any other program in fact, however the frequency he recommends would necessitate that volume be applied as often as possible, most likely limiting any specific workout to a moderate volume. But we're talking chronic applications here, not what happens in any one specific workout.

Direct answer from the author on the site: "That's the thing, I don't think you would have too use the stretch movements, but the whole basis is activating a specific chain that does upregulate translation. Now since stretch (in vitro and in situ) has been shown to upregulate this chain I added in the workout. The real issue is, does in vivo stretch accomplish this as well, some work says yes, but other researches looking specifically at in vivo stretch and strain relationship shows that in some muscle strain isn't accomplished unless, 1. The series elastic elements are stiffened via preload or 2. the SSC is started at longer lengths. Also some work show that hypertrophy isn't based on damage at all, eccentrics=greater damage hypothesis. So to do them or not is subjective and if you want too go ahead but I don't think it's absolutely necessary. "

Well I'll say this, the results will speak for themselves or they won't. It's a new system I admit, but based on a boat load of research and it's hard to argue with the science behind it. And yes it is like HST, in that while there is a cookie cutter routine it's really just principles to be applied. No where has he said 20 reps is the maximum to be used per movement, he's recommened adjusting volume to your specific needs in fact. That fatigue from constant tension and reduced blood flow inhibits mTor is pretty well established in the research he quotes. Whether his fatigue management methods will pan out is something to be determined. The basics of frequency and progressive loading over time are I think solid and in fact included in some very successful routines such as the standard 5x5s that many people have gotten big and strong off of and which, as written, have overall lower volume than this basic workout. It's well and good to say he's wrong, he marshalls what can only be called a lot of evidence to his defense.

I just bring it up as an option, one I'll be trying when I finish my current 5x5 in a couple months. I'll certainly report results for anyone who is interested.

bubba g

After reading this I definatly say do the higher reps.... It is obviously what you repond best to. You are better off, less chance of an injury...

Pj-Macx

I happen to agree with bubba, I think the higher reps are the way to go, I am the same way, I gain mass easier when I lift heavy, and more reps, so I totally understand what you are saying when you say you gained more mass through your last cycle.. I would at least go with the higher reps through your next cycle and see what happens.. you can always go back to the lower reps after this cycle if you dont get the results you want.. but I think you will like the results you get if you stay with the higher reps..

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A_N_91

How much do you weigh and experience do you have? If you can't squat or bench bodyweight easily, try doing the book in Starting Strenght by Mark Ripptoe. I have the routine a few threads down and it's supposed to work great on complete beginners and sometimes people who've been lifting for a while. I bought the book for $30 and it's really worth it. Shows good pictures on the lifts very precisely. But you don't really have to get the book, just look at the routine. I'm going to start it after I'm done cutting.

Jakl

I am about 173 right now. I would like to see 180-185 by the close of the year. I am no expert but I have been lifting on and off since I was 16. I can lift a good amount and I keep core exercises in my routine. I have just never had the chance to ask all these people how they do it.

I had to extend my cutting cycle for 2 more weeks because my wife through the vacation right in the middle of what would be my mass cycle. So far I may keep the high reps and just push the weight up every chance I get. But if you have a better idea, please post.