Implementing Overhead Squats into an Intermediate 5x5 program?

**davtown** · 08-25-2006, 07:14 AM

Here's the program I'm currently running, a link to my log is in my signature: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

In the program description it says to not mess with the exercises, but what I take that to mean is something like "don't subsitute leg extensions for squats". Simply by looking at the exercise, it's obvious that overhead squats are not an inferior movement.

My question for anyone who may have some advice is this: which day would look best to put in overhead squats? It doesn't bother me if I were to just do them with an empty bar, just getting the movement into my repertoire is satisfactory enough for me. If your knowledgable advice is for me to just leave them out and implement them after I've finished this program cycle, then I accept that as well. Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide.

**bigDman** · 08-25-2006, 12:45 PM

I would work them in on Wed because Wed is a lighter day. You still have heavy pulls that day and it will leave you more refreshed for your friday session

**madman911** · 08-25-2006, 02:19 PM

Personally, I wouldn't incoporate them into a 5x5. Overheads are great for balance and hip flexibility, but they aren't a great mass or strength builder... certainly not compared to standard squats. If you really feel compelled to incoporate them, I'd suggest doing them on Wednesday as an assistance exercise and only doing 3x8 with a really light weight... that way you can receive the benefits of the movement without limiting your ability to go all out on your standard squat sets. I would strongly disagree with a decision to replace any of your regular squats with overheads, but I won't bitch at you if you do.

**davtown** · 08-26-2006, 01:39 AM

I wasn't planning on replacing, just, as you said, incorporating them as an assistance exercise. Wednesdays it is, thanks for the input, guys

wildman1717 · 08-26-2006, 01:49 AM

I wouldn't mess with the program at all. I would leave it the way it is.

**madman911** · 08-26-2006, 03:35 AM

Why not mess with it? It isn't the bible, just a good basic program. I wouldn't make any major changes to the main compound lifts, but adding in some assistance exercises will not derail the plan's effectiveness as long as you always go all out on the major lifts and do the assistance work with whatever you have left in the gas tank. I plan to use this basic 5x5 program again when I come off my current contest prep phase to get my strength on the rise again and I'll be modifying it a bit. There's no direct hamstring work in the program; my hammies are one of my best bodyparts, so I'm going to add in some SLDL or glute-ham raises. I'll probably add in some calf work too and modify the arm work.

wildman1717 · 08-26-2006, 11:41 PM

If you start adding and subtracting exercises then you know longer have the Bill Star 5 X 5, Linear Version for Intermediate lifters program, you have something else. It would be a hybrid program not the program listed above. Also, deadlifts hit hamstrings and so do squats even more when you use a wide sumo stance.

**madman911** · 08-27-2006, 04:45 AM

There's no sense in not modifying a program simply to preserve the name. No program is 'one size fits all'. Bill Starr originally used this program for strength training football players, not for creating bodybuilders. Avoiding direct hamstring work is, IMO, a bad idea for a bodybuilder, so I will always do some.

wildman1717 · 08-27-2006, 07:02 AM

Again, when you modify a routine it isn't that routine it is something else. By the way, the 5 X 5 program is a cookie cutter program, it is designed to make you big and strong, you may want to go back and reread madcow's article on the above link. Your right, the program was designed for football. If your doing bodybuilding you may want to try some other workout, because this program focuses on strength, size and if that is what you want this program is great. I guess I could do rest pause work but does that mean it is a DC routine, only if I do the recommended exercises and the rest pause reps and use the templet that was laid out. If I don't follow them it isn't a DC routine it is something else.

**powerman2000** · 08-27-2006, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madman911

Personally, I wouldn't incoporate them into a 5x5.

Agree 100%

**powerman2000** · 08-27-2006, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildman1717

Also, deadlifts hit hamstrings and so do squats even more when you use a wide sumo stance.

Very true.

wildman1717 · 08-27-2006, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davtown

I wasn't planning on replacing, just, as you said, incorporating them as an assistance exercise. Wednesdays it is, thanks for the input, guys

Stick with the way the routine was designed. Eventually you'll stop making progress and it will be time to move on to the advanced 5 X 5 routine. You will stop making progress on it to as well. Then it will be time to make your own routine to suit your own needs. When you design your own program stick with the basics like squats, deadlifts, bench press, military or overhead pressing, weighted pull ups and dips, and bent over rows. Isolation work has its place but compound exercises are a bigger bang for your buck. Periodization is the name of the game after these cookie cutter programs. After you get the experience from using these 5 X 5 programs you'll know your body better then anybody and can make the proper adjustments.

08-25-2006, 07:14 AM	#1
davtown OM NOM NOM NOM Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 2,360 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 129	Implementing Overhead Squats into an Intermediate 5x5 program? Here's the program I'm currently running, a link to my log is in my signature: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm In the program description it says to not mess with the exercises, but what I take that to mean is something like "don't subsitute leg extensions for squats". Simply by looking at the exercise, it's obvious that overhead squats are not an inferior movement. My question for anyone who may have some advice is this: which day would look best to put in overhead squats? It doesn't bother me if I were to just do them with an empty bar, just getting the movement into my repertoire is satisfactory enough for me. If your knowledgable advice is for me to just leave them out and implement them after I've finished this program cycle, then I accept that as well. Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide. __________________ --Training Journal-- current/goal D: 350/380 S: 280/300 B: 235/260

08-25-2006, 02:19 PM	#3
madman911 Metamorphosizing Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston Area Posts: 1,543 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 62	Personally, I wouldn't incoporate them into a 5x5. Overheads are great for balance and hip flexibility, but they aren't a great mass or strength builder... certainly not compared to standard squats. If you really feel compelled to incoporate them, I'd suggest doing them on Wednesday as an assistance exercise and only doing 3x8 with a really light weight... that way you can receive the benefits of the movement without limiting your ability to go all out on your standard squat sets. I would strongly disagree with a decision to replace any of your regular squats with overheads, but I won't bitch at you if you do. __________________ Millennium Sport Technologies Sponsored Athlete http://www.millenniumsport.net IMPC 2006 Novice Division Champ IMPC 2007 Open Division Champ Never underestimate the power of the bandana.

08-26-2006, 01:39 AM	#4
davtown OM NOM NOM NOM Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 2,360 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 129	I wasn't planning on replacing, just, as you said, incorporating them as an assistance exercise. Wednesdays it is, thanks for the input, guys __________________ --Training Journal-- current/goal D: 350/380 S: 280/300 B: 235/260

08-26-2006, 03:35 AM	#6
madman911 Metamorphosizing Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston Area Posts: 1,543 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 62	Why not mess with it? It isn't the bible, just a good basic program. I wouldn't make any major changes to the main compound lifts, but adding in some assistance exercises will not derail the plan's effectiveness as long as you always go all out on the major lifts and do the assistance work with whatever you have left in the gas tank. I plan to use this basic 5x5 program again when I come off my current contest prep phase to get my strength on the rise again and I'll be modifying it a bit. There's no direct hamstring work in the program; my hammies are one of my best bodyparts, so I'm going to add in some SLDL or glute-ham raises. I'll probably add in some calf work too and modify the arm work. __________________ Millennium Sport Technologies Sponsored Athlete http://www.millenniumsport.net IMPC 2006 Novice Division Champ IMPC 2007 Open Division Champ Never underestimate the power of the bandana.

08-27-2006, 04:45 AM	#8
madman911 Metamorphosizing Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston Area Posts: 1,543 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 62	There's no sense in not modifying a program simply to preserve the name. No program is 'one size fits all'. Bill Starr originally used this program for strength training football players, not for creating bodybuilders. Avoiding direct hamstring work is, IMO, a bad idea for a bodybuilder, so I will always do some. __________________ Millennium Sport Technologies Sponsored Athlete http://www.millenniumsport.net IMPC 2006 Novice Division Champ IMPC 2007 Open Division Champ Never underestimate the power of the bandana.

08-26-2006, 01:49 AM	#5
wildman1717 Pro Stature Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 107 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 4	I wouldn't mess with the program at all. I would leave it the way it is.

08-26-2006, 11:41 PM	#7
wildman1717 Pro Stature Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 107 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 4	If you start adding and subtracting exercises then you know longer have the Bill Star 5 X 5, Linear Version for Intermediate lifters program, you have something else. It would be a hybrid program not the program listed above. Also, deadlifts hit hamstrings and so do squats even more when you use a wide sumo stance.

08-27-2006, 07:02 AM	#9
wildman1717 Pro Stature Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 107 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 4	Again, when you modify a routine it isn't that routine it is something else. By the way, the 5 X 5 program is a cookie cutter program, it is designed to make you big and strong, you may want to go back and reread madcow's article on the above link. Your right, the program was designed for football. If your doing bodybuilding you may want to try some other workout, because this program focuses on strength, size and if that is what you want this program is great. I guess I could do rest pause work but does that mean it is a DC routine, only if I do the recommended exercises and the rest pause reps and use the templet that was laid out. If I don't follow them it isn't a DC routine it is something else.

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