How necessary is excellent form?

Ihateeveryone · 06-24-2006, 07:53 AM

Up until about three months ago, I used to lift with impeccable form. Weights weren't huge, but I was able to use almost perfect form on whatever lift I performed. Got some decent size happening. About 10 weeks ago, I stopped being so strict - my form dropped a little, but all my weights went up, and I've started to get a lot thicker. The idea I spose was using a little momentum to force the weight through the sticking point. From what I've read, that overloads the maximum stretch point, which causes muscle fibres to work harder and grow bigger or some shit - I'd rather train than perform scientific experiments in the gym, but I thought it was worth a try. This leads me to question just exactly how important excellent form is.

**Peaked_18** · 06-24-2006, 01:45 PM

Injuries, and different muscle firing.

Ihateeveryone · 06-24-2006, 02:10 PM

Right. I figured as much as it was, and it's quite obvious to see that shocking form leads to injuries. But, as I said, I'm still fairly strict, but with a movement like tricep pressdowns, or bicep curls, or any form of row or pulldown, I've found myself going heavier with a little momentum to force the weight through the sticking point - and the results have been, so far, pretty impressive - as I said, I look a lot thicker, and nothing has changed - same diet, same basic sleep pattern, same basic lifting routines.

Again, I'll ask the question - how necessary is it? I know the effects of using terrible form, in case anyone else tries to spell them out.

CROWLER · 06-24-2006, 02:21 PM

IMO you should have a slight pause at the top and the bottom of the movement. The loaded portion of the exercise is where most injuries occur, eg. in Bench Press this would be the bottom.

BUT you do not have to do a full range of motion to maximize muscle size and in some cases increase the chance of injury. I do however suggest you go through a complete stretch after you have completed working that particular muscle.

CROWLER

**Peaked_18** · 06-24-2006, 02:38 PM

You know guys who can't lift because of injuries?

In a few years or less you could become one of them.

**Trick D** · 06-24-2006, 04:23 PM

That's the thing about form... bad form= greater risk of injuries. Now there are several exercises I incorporate on purpose with bad form. One being cheat curls. THis allows me to overload my biceps. A principle that Arnold was obsessed with. Yes you do have a greater risk of hurting yourself, but it all has to deal with control more than form on a lot of exercises. I don't overload it with 20 lbs more than I can curl, just 5-10 pounds.

**DJSTARER** · 06-24-2006, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ihateeveryone

Up until about three months ago, I used to lift with impeccable form. Weights weren't huge, but I was able to use almost perfect form on whatever lift I performed. Got some decent size happening. About 10 weeks ago, I stopped being so strict - my form dropped a little, but all my weights went up, and I've started to get a lot thicker. The idea I spose was using a little momentum to force the weight through the sticking point. From what I've read, that overloads the maximum stretch point, which causes muscle fibres to work harder and grow bigger or some shit - I'd rather train than perform scientific experiments in the gym, but I thought it was worth a try. This leads me to question just exactly how important excellent form is.

how important is a perfect diet?

The analogy is a good one. There are something things you can cheat on and have good success with low injury occurences, while certain lifts must be performed carefully.

curls are one thing.... squating and deadlifting are a whole different story.

**Trick D** · 06-24-2006, 07:49 PM

Exactly...

CROWLER · 06-24-2006, 08:12 PM

I guess we first need to define perfect form.

If you mean imperfect form is bouncing and swinging the weight then IMO you do NOT want to do that.

But if you mean is it ok to do less than full range of motion eg when doing dips NOT going below parallel then I say that is ok.

Or on bench only going down until your arms at a 90 degree angle and the bar is still off your chest again I am going to say yes that is fine and you are NOT risking injury and will still develop the chest muscle just fine.

CROWLER

Ihateeveryone · 06-24-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARER

how important is a perfect diet?

The analogy is a good one. There are something things you can cheat on and have good success with low injury occurences, while certain lifts must be performed carefully.

curls are one thing.... squating and deadlifting are a whole different story.

Yeah, thats what I'm on about. I'm not gonna cheat when squatting or deadlifting, but I've incorporated the "cheat curls", and especially with barbell rows - I've thrown an extra 45lb on the bar, and I have to bob a little at the top of the row to get the bar to my waist, but that's it. Nothing to the point where I'll throw my spine out - and my back especially looks a lot thicker again.

DJohnson · 06-24-2006, 10:45 PM

My range of motion is always 100% complete and I always come to complete stops. BUT, I'll incorporate a little bit extra from other muscle groups if it will help me max out the one I'm working.

For example with DB curls I'll keep my shoulders square to limit back involvement, but other than that I let my back do as much as it wants and I get a lot more effort out of my biceps alone.

CROWLER · 06-24-2006, 11:06 PM

When you say range of motion is 100% what does that mean?

CROWLER

**Peaked_18** · 06-24-2006, 11:23 PM

Not all movement should go to 100%. Other wise you can hyperextend something.

~~2Ripped4U~~ · 06-25-2006, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARER

how important is a perfect diet?

The analogy is a good one. There are something things you can cheat on and have good success with low injury occurences, while certain lifts must be performed carefully.

curls are one thing.... squating and deadlifting are a whole different story.

Very well put...

Vegeto · 06-25-2006, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CROWLER

I guess we first need to define perfect form.

That's what I was going to say.

It really depends on your level of training and experience, and what kind of training you are involved in. Olympic lifters often look springy and bouncy, yet their movement patterns are near flawless, even when they issue power in an explosive manner. In bodybuilding, what is considered 'good form' will decrease the amount of weight you can lift. ...But in O-lifting, what is considered 'good form' will increase the amount you can lift. At least that is the way I see it.

We need some clearly defined terms, saying perfect form is usually means whatever the person believes perfect form to be.

**skelooth** · 06-25-2006, 02:12 AM

I've really been going crazy about improving my form lately.... and my weights have dropped in lbs significantly but I get a much better workout and feel like I am at less of a chance of hurting myself.

I've really been working on doing slow controlled reps in the 8ish rep range. I"ve even gone to the extent of doing things like incline seated curls so that I CAN'T cheat.

Since I've started this I've found my endurance has slightly improved and a larger ROM feels much more natural now.

anyway, I think form is important. If you're not doing it right "you'll shoot your eye out" if you know what I'm saying. Sometimes you just gotta leave your ego at the door and lift lighter iron than you'd like to.

**powerman2000** · 06-25-2006, 07:40 AM

I don't think that a person's "form" has to be perfect, but I do believe it should at least be near perfect in order to really nail the muscle fibers that you are trying to stimulate. It's ok to get a little sloppy on the last rep or two, but if you're doing a set of 10 reps and they are all sloppy then I would say that you are cheating yourself from a good and affective workout. I'm talking about the guys who have arms half as big as mine and yet use twice as much weight on DB curls.

And I would never cheat on a big, heavy compound movement for fear of injury.

**BigZeke** · 06-25-2006, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peaked_18

You know guys who can't lift because of injuries?

In a few years or less you could become one of them.

He can hang out with DieselWeasel then.

06-24-2006, 07:53 AM	#1
Ihateeveryone Pro Stature Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Castle of Blakkheim Posts: 752 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	How necessary is excellent form? Up until about three months ago, I used to lift with impeccable form. Weights weren't huge, but I was able to use almost perfect form on whatever lift I performed. Got some decent size happening. About 10 weeks ago, I stopped being so strict - my form dropped a little, but all my weights went up, and I've started to get a lot thicker. The idea I spose was using a little momentum to force the weight through the sticking point. From what I've read, that overloads the maximum stretch point, which causes muscle fibres to work harder and grow bigger or some shit - I'd rather train than perform scientific experiments in the gym, but I thought it was worth a try. This leads me to question just exactly how important excellent form is. __________________ Bullshit things: Hippies Astrology Rap music Nu metal Leg presses Communism Nitric Oxide Left wing politics Decaf coffee Fortune cookies Cutting Prudes Wine coolers Non materialism F**k marijuana - legalise steroids!! Bart: Ohhh, this place smells, and somethings dripping on me! Willie: The smell's manure, and the drippin's manure!

06-24-2006, 02:10 PM	#3
Ihateeveryone Pro Stature Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Castle of Blakkheim Posts: 752 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	Right. I figured as much as it was, and it's quite obvious to see that shocking form leads to injuries. But, as I said, I'm still fairly strict, but with a movement like tricep pressdowns, or bicep curls, or any form of row or pulldown, I've found myself going heavier with a little momentum to force the weight through the sticking point - and the results have been, so far, pretty impressive - as I said, I look a lot thicker, and nothing has changed - same diet, same basic sleep pattern, same basic lifting routines. Again, I'll ask the question - how necessary is it? I know the effects of using terrible form, in case anyone else tries to spell them out. __________________ Bullshit things: Hippies Astrology Rap music Nu metal Leg presses Communism Nitric Oxide Left wing politics Decaf coffee Fortune cookies Cutting Prudes Wine coolers Non materialism F**k marijuana - legalise steroids!! Bart: Ohhh, this place smells, and somethings dripping on me! Willie: The smell's manure, and the drippin's manure!

06-24-2006, 10:45 PM	#11
DJohnson IMPC Contestant Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,014 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 45	My range of motion is always 100% complete and I always come to complete stops. BUT, I'll incorporate a little bit extra from other muscle groups if it will help me max out the one I'm working. For example with DB curls I'll keep my shoulders square to limit back involvement, but other than that I let my back do as much as it wants and I get a lot more effort out of my biceps alone. __________________ Age: 21 Height: 5'10.5" Mar, 2001: 135lbs @ ~14% Nov, 2004: 245lbs @ ~40% Feb, 2006: 188lbs @ 20.1% - Hydrostatic Tested Dec, 2006: 168lbs @ 5.5% - 7 Point Caliper Tested BULKING FOR A LONG TIME NOW Long Term Goal: Over 200lbs @ 8%

06-25-2006, 02:12 AM	#16
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,202 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	I've really been going crazy about improving my form lately.... and my weights have dropped in lbs significantly but I get a much better workout and feel like I am at less of a chance of hurting myself. I've really been working on doing slow controlled reps in the 8ish rep range. I"ve even gone to the extent of doing things like incline seated curls so that I CAN'T cheat. Since I've started this I've found my endurance has slightly improved and a larger ROM feels much more natural now. anyway, I think form is important. If you're not doing it right "you'll shoot your eye out" if you know what I'm saying. Sometimes you just gotta leave your ego at the door and lift lighter iron than you'd like to. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

06-25-2006, 07:40 AM	#17
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,136 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 200	I don't think that a person's "form" has to be perfect, but I do believe it should at least be near perfect in order to really nail the muscle fibers that you are trying to stimulate. It's ok to get a little sloppy on the last rep or two, but if you're doing a set of 10 reps and they are all sloppy then I would say that you are cheating yourself from a good and affective workout. I'm talking about the guys who have arms half as big as mine and yet use twice as much weight on DB curls. And I would never cheat on a big, heavy compound movement for fear of injury. __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

06-24-2006, 01:45 PM	#2
Peaked_18 a la commode Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,247 Recipes: 2 Rep Power: 96	Injuries, and different muscle firing.

06-24-2006, 02:21 PM	#4
CROWLER Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 264 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 5	IMO you should have a slight pause at the top and the bottom of the movement. The loaded portion of the exercise is where most injuries occur, eg. in Bench Press this would be the bottom. BUT you do not have to do a full range of motion to maximize muscle size and in some cases increase the chance of injury. I do however suggest you go through a complete stretch after you have completed working that particular muscle. CROWLER

06-24-2006, 02:38 PM	#5
Peaked_18 a la commode Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,247 Recipes: 2 Rep Power: 96	You know guys who can't lift because of injuries? In a few years or less you could become one of them.

06-24-2006, 08:12 PM	#9
CROWLER Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 264 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 5	I guess we first need to define perfect form. If you mean imperfect form is bouncing and swinging the weight then IMO you do NOT want to do that. But if you mean is it ok to do less than full range of motion eg when doing dips NOT going below parallel then I say that is ok. Or on bench only going down until your arms at a 90 degree angle and the bar is still off your chest again I am going to say yes that is fine and you are NOT risking injury and will still develop the chest muscle just fine. CROWLER

06-24-2006, 11:06 PM	#12
CROWLER Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 264 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 5	When you say range of motion is 100% what does that mean? CROWLER

06-24-2006, 11:23 PM	#13
Peaked_18 a la commode Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,247 Recipes: 2 Rep Power: 96	Not all movement should go to 100%. Other wise you can hyperextend something.

06-25-2006, 10:01 AM	#19
b-boy Gold Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 548 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 42