Guide to Becoming a Machine?

**Sholiz** · 05-13-2005, 11:43 PM

I think we can take this somewhere, just hear me out ...

Every training program is the end-all of training programs, right? But how would it be to combine all the programs and the best things they utilize into one program for the best gains you could have -- ever.

So say Max-OT, it's all about developing strength (same with West Side Barbell). Now, think about it. Doggcrap is about developing strength over a prolonged period of time, which will result in size gains with strength. Then there is HST, it's all about gaining size.

What do each of these have that the others lack? At best, DC seems to bring everything together but it dosen't seem to encorporate some principes that powerlifters use to break through plateaus.

So say we take WSBB principles for breaking plateaus, DC RP'ing and such, HST deconditioning to add for a light-weight period coming off of a 'bulk' to say.

As DC states, progressive overload is THE way to promote new muscle growth. So say we take rest-pausing, still keeping the same idea for RP'ing movements ... still keeping the same idea of workouts featuring 5 bodyparts per say, but say we ajust that some.

Say we do 4 workouts a week, taking MON-THURS for lowerbody and TUES-FRI for upper. 2 exercises that you would do, working with rest-pausing and as heavy of weights you can mange. One compound to totally destroy you, followed by a isolation movement to stretch (following this all by another stretch for muscle fasica stretching purposes and to take the blood out of the muscle).

Watching some Pro's train, this almost seems like Ruhl's way of training. Starts out with a heavy compound, another heavy compound, and then finishes it with an isolation.

These are just some basic ideas, let's see if we can capitalize on these in technical terms. Let's try to keep this alive and see how far we can take it, maybe we can come up with the end-all program ...

sfiximo · 05-13-2005, 11:52 PM

Sounds interesting, id like to help but im not experienced enough

**Sholiz** · 05-14-2005, 12:35 AM

As concerning diet on this, it's been said before diet is a science and it's not what you eat but how you eat.

any ideas on this aswell?

**MurphMan** · 05-14-2005, 02:59 AM

I train that way too. I think it all comes down to just destroying the muscle as completely as possible. Warm up, hit it heavy and hard, get it full of blood, then use the isolation moves to fully contract the muscle. It's at this stage where most people quit. I think it is very important to change training techniques and incorporate extreme stretching and use heavy negatives to tear the muscle even more. When the muscle is engorged with blood and you use extreme stretching, it causes the fascia to stretch, which allows for muscle growth. After the stretching, the heavy negatives just obliterate your muscle fibers, which is what we all are trying to accomplish by working out. It is very important, though, to give your muscle enough time and to rest and repair after using such techniques.

**MurphMan** · 05-14-2005, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholiz

As concerning diet on this, it's been said before diet is a science and it's not what you eat but how you eat.

any ideas on this aswell?

Diet is so critical. I'm really starting to see what can be accomplished with a proper diet. Proper diet is very important because we, as bbers, need the right ratios of protein/carbs/fats and at the right intervals to keep the body in an anabolic state. I have recently brought my diet up another notch. I THOUGHT I knew how to eat, but now, after much research, I realize that I was pretty good, but not nearly as knowledgable and committed as I should be. Since I started eating every 2-3 hours with a 45/35/20 protein/carb/fat ratio, my body comp has changed dramatically. I have an Excel spreadsheet that I have designed to calculate every gram of protein, carb and fat along with calories, oz of water etc. You simply plug in the foods that you eat on a daily basis, mark the meals that you actually consumed and it records your results in a daily calendar that is part of the spread sheet. I will offer it for personal use to those that may want to try it. But it is being copyrighted and is not for reproduction. It is almost finished.....I should have it ready in a couple days. When I do, I'll post it in the nutrition forum.

**Sholiz** · 05-14-2005, 03:11 AM

So say using that idea Murph, you'd do something like this for say chest ...

Incline Barbell, work up to a heavy 11-15RP then while you're still pumped work with say dumbell flyes, then on the last rep stretch for 45 seconds. AFter that, go back to incline barbell and take as heavy of a weight as you can handle (say 1RM) and do the most brutally long negative and a spotted on the way up.

So say doing that, you'd do that for each muscle group (with exception of legs and most back movements, it's not reccomended to RP them).

**johnsbod** · 05-14-2005, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholiz

So say using that idea Murph, you'd do something like this for say chest ...

Incline Barbell, work up to a heavy 11-15RP then while you're still pumped work with say dumbell flyes, then on the last rep stretch for 45 seconds. AFter that, go back to incline barbell and take as heavy of a weight as you can handle (say 1RM) and do the most brutally long negative and a spotted on the way up.

So say doing that, you'd do that for each muscle group (with exception of legs and most back movements, it's not reccomended to RP them).

I see where you're going with this.

BTW, if any of you guys want a great chest exercise, try ATrainer flyes. Try doing them after (or before if you like to pre-exhaust) your heavy presses and they will absolutely kill your chest.

http://www.exercisegroup.com/seriouslegtraining.html

Basically, they are cable flyes with your palms facing up.

**Sholiz** · 05-14-2005, 03:31 AM

so would we stick the isolation before the compound? or vice versa ...

I'd like to see it stick to 1 compound followed by an isolation followed by a stretch.

**MurphMan** · 05-14-2005, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholiz

So say using that idea Murph, you'd do something like this for say chest ...

Incline Barbell, work up to a heavy 11-15RP then while you're still pumped work with say dumbell flyes, then on the last rep stretch for 45 seconds. AFter that, go back to incline barbell and take as heavy of a weight as you can handle (say 1RM) and do the most brutally long negative and a spotted on the way up.

So say doing that, you'd do that for each muscle group (with exception of legs and most back movements, it's not reccomended to RP them).

Yes, that example explains it pretty well. Another would be curls. (Since my bicep is the best part of my body!

) I'll start out with standing BB curls, 3x12. Then move to heavy DB hammer curls 3x6, then incline DB 3x8. At this point the bi's are popping and engorged. I further the pump with single grip cable curls, trying to hit the bi at a different angle, and usually go to exhaustion, 3x8-12. Now comes the stretching with preacher curls, 2 stretches for 30-45 seconds. Finally, (using a spotter) load up your 1RM preacher curl and do 3 negs AS SLOW AS YOU CAN. You will curl up in agony!

**Sholiz** · 05-14-2005, 03:35 AM

intense murph!!!

But that's getting away from the point of progressive overload, or do you beat last week every week?

Taking DC as it stays grow over time with high intensity instead of high volume.

**MurphMan** · 05-14-2005, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholiz

intense murph!!!

But that's getting away from the point of progressive overload, or do you beat last week every week?

Taking DC as it stays grow over time with high intensity instead of high volume.

I got to go to bed now, sorry. I'll continue this ASAP. My gf needs some lovin'! :o

**MurphMan** · 05-14-2005, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholiz

intense murph!!!

But that's getting away from the point of progressive overload, or do you beat last week every week?

Taking DC as it stays grow over time with high intensity instead of high volume.

Actually, this is my progressive overload. That is why my bi's are well developed. I just started doing this about a week ago. I'll expand on this ASAP!

**antihero** · 05-14-2005, 11:40 AM

NOTE: some things shouldnt be RP'ed due to safety reason....dont forget that...

**Sholiz** · 05-14-2005, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antihero

NOTE: some things shouldnt be RP'ed due to safety reason....dont forget that...

Yup, I threw that in earlier ...

I gave this more thought, say you worked a 4 day split but 2 ways ...

D1
Chest
Shoulders
Tricep
Back Thickness
Back Width

D2
Biceps
Forearms
Quads
Hamstrings
Calves

IMO, Quads before Hammys or Calves for the fact that working calves or hams I can hardly walk after... so sticking with quads before means, say squatting, you'll hit hamstrigns aswell so in a way you're working with a compound first.

Quads might be a hard one since they're primarily slow twitch to find a good isolation exercise, and I prefer press/pull movements over such as leg extensions. Same goes for shoulders with raise type movements.

**Sholiz** · 05-14-2005, 08:49 PM

You knwo I just got to thinking about calf and bicep training ideas, mainly because they seem to lack compound movements ...

Say take calves, what seems to work best for me (and I think it's on general) is brutally heavy weight for 10-15 reps. Statics can't really be used unless you hold at the top of a raise, but say you did something like this ...

Seated calves for 10 reps with as heavy of weight, no stretching but a 10 second negative. By 10 you should be screaming, then after this waddle over to standing calf or smythe calf maybe donkey calf, but whatever keeps your legs straight and will let you get a solid stretch ... I don't agree with smythe calves for this set. Bump the weight to what you can do for 8, and do 8. Doing this you'll get to stretch the muscle itself and not use a seated calf where it takes the ancle out of alignment with the knee which puts alot of strain on achillies tendon and isn't good for your ancle. So at the standing calf raise you do your 6-8 reps but this time with 5 second negatives and a 15 second stretch at the bottom ... put a board on the thing, do NOT let your heels touch the ground but bury your heel down as far as physically possible. Then make as explosive of an upward as you can, 5 second negative ... 15 sec stretch for 6 reps.

Now if you are against seated calves, well ... mabe doubing a donkey calf raise with the standing calf or leg press calves with the standing calf. You just need to have one movement where it's 10-15 reps with slow negatives and no lower stretch, then move to the heaviest you can do in a standing straight-legged movement.

As for bicep training, I'm thinking it may be best to double this with forearms at the same time because both are helpers to each. So start with dumbell hammer curls for 15-20RP (8-4-3 or 12-5-3 somethign to that effect) then do straight barbell curls for 15-20RP again. After this move over to reverse grip cable curls for a 15 rep straight set following that do bicep stretches ... wide grip turn elbows out and walk yourself away from a barbell around shoulder width. After this, your muscle is stretched and feeling deprived of blood. Move over to preacher curls and load up a bar with your 1RM. You're probally fatigured and felt the pump, with the bar and your 1RM have your spotter get it into place (you're probally dead by now, but get it tup) and make a 10-15 second negative. AS BRUTALLY SLOW AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN.

This will kill you, I don't care who you are if you do this right you won't leave a single bicep fiber untouched. On the last rep, hold the negative ALMOST at the bottom of the movement where your arm is almost fully extended but keeping constant tension on the bicep. Hold this as LONG as YOU POSSIBLY CAN. After this I think you can call it quits.

What we're trying to do here though, is starting with the hammer curls it's as much of a compound movement for biceps and forearms. You might also want to work on wrist flexors ... with behind the back wrist curls or something. But I don't think that's neccesary if you're doing back thickness exercises with no straps, hell even back width. Pullups or pulldowns can really get the forearms going if you're using heavy weights.

**Sholiz** · 05-17-2005, 07:06 PM

I was just thinking of some things like shoulders and legs since it's going to be tricky to do a static with, I'm sure you don't want to hold a grand on the leg press for more than the reps you have to. I was experimenting with super-slows my last workout day and I must say, this is what I'm thinking ..

Legs, train effectively from 4 to a hard widowmaker set of anywhere from 20-50 reps. This is from DC training ... 3 working sets of x8, x4 and then x20. What this program will have you do, that is if you trust your spotter, load up and do the heaviest 6 reps you can and spot out 2 more. Then load up the heaviest 4 you can do and get 6. Then load up what you can get for 8-12 comfortably (on a good day) and get 20. I don't care how ... do it. Get 20. If you get 12 the first time and are gasping for air, take 3 big breaks and do 2 more. Big breath, one more ... get 20 and you should feel like you're dead trying.

See, here's where it'd get tricky. How can you EFFECTIVELY do a heavy negative set? Well the negatives are the easy part ... how can you effectively do a static? Well IMO you can't. So what we're going to do instead is now stretch out your legs anyway you feel a good stretch in your quads, and then load up the bar for a heavy 3 rep negative set. Get what you did for 4 on there again (you shouldn't be able to do this on your own anyway) and make a 10-15 second negative. BRUTALLY SLOW, don't need to count seconds but make sure you're feeling agonized and the burn in the quads. Have the spotter spot you on each to get the weight up, they'll be getting a workout aswell LOL.

But now what about shoulders? Well ... I don't htink you need 300 sets of raises, so what I want to see done is pressing movements. Some sort of overhead press, followed by a barbell 5 rep negative set. So what here? Say you're doing military barbell and then you'll do military negatives? Well yes and no ... I like 15-20RP for shoulders so do your regular set, as many warmups as needed but now take what you could do effively for say ... 3 reps max. After the 15-20RP you should be totally burnt, so spotter yet again. Make a 20 second 3 rep negative set. This should totally kill you, but we're not done. If you can and it feels comfortable I like to see a static hold about 3" off your chest at the bottom. Feels like anothjer good stretch to me. Hold this as long as possible with the same weight you used for negatives. I can manage about 15 seconds and I'm screaming after the first 10.

I'll finish my thoguhts later ...

**johnsbod** · 05-17-2005, 07:36 PM

Are you still talking to yourself Sholiz?

I think you have some good ideas here. One thing you need to remember though is that the reason you can workout the same bodypart with DC training more often is because the volume is lower. If you come up with a hybrid training method applying some principles of DC and you want to train as frequently, you need to keep the volume relatively low and make sure your body has time to fully recover. Keep in mind that muscle soreness is not a good gauge of recovery. Just because you are not sore does not mean you are recovered.

05-13-2005, 11:43 PM	#1
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,428 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 230	Guide to Becoming a Machine? I think we can take this somewhere, just hear me out ... Every training program is the end-all of training programs, right? But how would it be to combine all the programs and the best things they utilize into one program for the best gains you could have -- ever. So say Max-OT, it's all about developing strength (same with West Side Barbell). Now, think about it. Doggcrap is about developing strength over a prolonged period of time, which will result in size gains with strength. Then there is HST, it's all about gaining size. What do each of these have that the others lack? At best, DC seems to bring everything together but it dosen't seem to encorporate some principes that powerlifters use to break through plateaus. So say we take WSBB principles for breaking plateaus, DC RP'ing and such, HST deconditioning to add for a light-weight period coming off of a 'bulk' to say. As DC states, progressive overload is THE way to promote new muscle growth. So say we take rest-pausing, still keeping the same idea for RP'ing movements ... still keeping the same idea of workouts featuring 5 bodyparts per say, but say we ajust that some. Say we do 4 workouts a week, taking MON-THURS for lowerbody and TUES-FRI for upper. 2 exercises that you would do, working with rest-pausing and as heavy of weights you can mange. One compound to totally destroy you, followed by a isolation movement to stretch (following this all by another stretch for muscle fasica stretching purposes and to take the blood out of the muscle). Watching some Pro's train, this almost seems like Ruhl's way of training. Starts out with a heavy compound, another heavy compound, and then finishes it with an isolation. These are just some basic ideas, let's see if we can capitalize on these in technical terms. Let's try to keep this alive and see how far we can take it, maybe we can come up with the end-all program ... __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

05-13-2005, 11:52 PM	#2
sfiximo Pro Stature Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: a Posts: 303 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 7	Sounds interesting, id like to help but im not experienced enough __________________ check out my journal (its somewhere in the workout log section)

05-14-2005, 12:35 AM	#3
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,428 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 230	As concerning diet on this, it's been said before diet is a science and it's not what you eat but how you eat. any ideas on this aswell? __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

05-14-2005, 03:11 AM	#6
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,428 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 230	So say using that idea Murph, you'd do something like this for say chest ... Incline Barbell, work up to a heavy 11-15RP then while you're still pumped work with say dumbell flyes, then on the last rep stretch for 45 seconds. AFter that, go back to incline barbell and take as heavy of a weight as you can handle (say 1RM) and do the most brutally long negative and a spotted on the way up. So say doing that, you'd do that for each muscle group (with exception of legs and most back movements, it's not reccomended to RP them). __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

05-14-2005, 03:31 AM	#8
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,428 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 230	so would we stick the isolation before the compound? or vice versa ... I'd like to see it stick to 1 compound followed by an isolation followed by a stretch. __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

05-14-2005, 02:59 AM	#4
MurphMan Robomoderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,598 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 26	I train that way too. I think it all comes down to just destroying the muscle as completely as possible. Warm up, hit it heavy and hard, get it full of blood, then use the isolation moves to fully contract the muscle. It's at this stage where most people quit. I think it is very important to change training techniques and incorporate extreme stretching and use heavy negatives to tear the muscle even more. When the muscle is engorged with blood and you use extreme stretching, it causes the fascia to stretch, which allows for muscle growth. After the stretching, the heavy negatives just obliterate your muscle fibers, which is what we all are trying to accomplish by working out. It is very important, though, to give your muscle enough time and to rest and repair after using such techniques.

05-14-2005, 03:35 AM	#10
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,428 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 230	intense murph!!! But that's getting away from the point of progressive overload, or do you beat last week every week? Taking DC as it stays grow over time with high intensity instead of high volume. __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

05-14-2005, 11:40 AM	#13
antihero Gold Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,687 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 33	NOTE: some things shouldnt be RP'ed due to safety reason....dont forget that... __________________ ****************** Disclaimer: Information given by me is my personal opinion. It cannot be considered medical advice and does not represent the official opinion of a company that is not a sponsor here. ******************

05-14-2005, 08:49 PM	#15
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,428 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 230	You knwo I just got to thinking about calf and bicep training ideas, mainly because they seem to lack compound movements ... Say take calves, what seems to work best for me (and I think it's on general) is brutally heavy weight for 10-15 reps. Statics can't really be used unless you hold at the top of a raise, but say you did something like this ... Seated calves for 10 reps with as heavy of weight, no stretching but a 10 second negative. By 10 you should be screaming, then after this waddle over to standing calf or smythe calf maybe donkey calf, but whatever keeps your legs straight and will let you get a solid stretch ... I don't agree with smythe calves for this set. Bump the weight to what you can do for 8, and do 8. Doing this you'll get to stretch the muscle itself and not use a seated calf where it takes the ancle out of alignment with the knee which puts alot of strain on achillies tendon and isn't good for your ancle. So at the standing calf raise you do your 6-8 reps but this time with 5 second negatives and a 15 second stretch at the bottom ... put a board on the thing, do NOT let your heels touch the ground but bury your heel down as far as physically possible. Then make as explosive of an upward as you can, 5 second negative ... 15 sec stretch for 6 reps. Now if you are against seated calves, well ... mabe doubing a donkey calf raise with the standing calf or leg press calves with the standing calf. You just need to have one movement where it's 10-15 reps with slow negatives and no lower stretch, then move to the heaviest you can do in a standing straight-legged movement. As for bicep training, I'm thinking it may be best to double this with forearms at the same time because both are helpers to each. So start with dumbell hammer curls for 15-20RP (8-4-3 or 12-5-3 somethign to that effect) then do straight barbell curls for 15-20RP again. After this move over to reverse grip cable curls for a 15 rep straight set following that do bicep stretches ... wide grip turn elbows out and walk yourself away from a barbell around shoulder width. After this, your muscle is stretched and feeling deprived of blood. Move over to preacher curls and load up a bar with your 1RM. You're probally fatigured and felt the pump, with the bar and your 1RM have your spotter get it into place (you're probally dead by now, but get it tup) and make a 10-15 second negative. AS BRUTALLY SLOW AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. This will kill you, I don't care who you are if you do this right you won't leave a single bicep fiber untouched. On the last rep, hold the negative ALMOST at the bottom of the movement where your arm is almost fully extended but keeping constant tension on the bicep. Hold this as LONG as YOU POSSIBLY CAN. After this I think you can call it quits. What we're trying to do here though, is starting with the hammer curls it's as much of a compound movement for biceps and forearms. You might also want to work on wrist flexors ... with behind the back wrist curls or something. But I don't think that's neccesary if you're doing back thickness exercises with no straps, hell even back width. Pullups or pulldowns can really get the forearms going if you're using heavy weights. __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

05-17-2005, 07:06 PM	#16
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,428 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 230	I was just thinking of some things like shoulders and legs since it's going to be tricky to do a static with, I'm sure you don't want to hold a grand on the leg press for more than the reps you have to. I was experimenting with super-slows my last workout day and I must say, this is what I'm thinking .. Legs, train effectively from 4 to a hard widowmaker set of anywhere from 20-50 reps. This is from DC training ... 3 working sets of x8, x4 and then x20. What this program will have you do, that is if you trust your spotter, load up and do the heaviest 6 reps you can and spot out 2 more. Then load up the heaviest 4 you can do and get 6. Then load up what you can get for 8-12 comfortably (on a good day) and get 20. I don't care how ... do it. Get 20. If you get 12 the first time and are gasping for air, take 3 big breaks and do 2 more. Big breath, one more ... get 20 and you should feel like you're dead trying. See, here's where it'd get tricky. How can you EFFECTIVELY do a heavy negative set? Well the negatives are the easy part ... how can you effectively do a static? Well IMO you can't. So what we're going to do instead is now stretch out your legs anyway you feel a good stretch in your quads, and then load up the bar for a heavy 3 rep negative set. Get what you did for 4 on there again (you shouldn't be able to do this on your own anyway) and make a 10-15 second negative. BRUTALLY SLOW, don't need to count seconds but make sure you're feeling agonized and the burn in the quads. Have the spotter spot you on each to get the weight up, they'll be getting a workout aswell LOL. But now what about shoulders? Well ... I don't htink you need 300 sets of raises, so what I want to see done is pressing movements. Some sort of overhead press, followed by a barbell 5 rep negative set. So what here? Say you're doing military barbell and then you'll do military negatives? Well yes and no ... I like 15-20RP for shoulders so do your regular set, as many warmups as needed but now take what you could do effively for say ... 3 reps max. After the 15-20RP you should be totally burnt, so spotter yet again. Make a 20 second 3 rep negative set. This should totally kill you, but we're not done. If you can and it feels comfortable I like to see a static hold about 3" off your chest at the bottom. Feels like anothjer good stretch to me. Hold this as long as possible with the same weight you used for negatives. I can manage about 15 seconds and I'm screaming after the first 10. I'll finish my thoguhts later ... __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk