Ihateeveryone

Low carb is bullshit for bulking. I know that. But I'm beginning to think that it's garbage for cutting when it comes down to it, unless you wish to lose muscle too. I've done a bit of reading, and I've done some experimenting, and I've come to the conclusion that mixing fat and carbs is a bad idea given that the body uses both for fuel. I deduced ( :bigthumbu ) that if both carbs and fat are being ingested, they will compete to be metabolised in the body - one will be metabolised, and the other will be stored. Either way, you combine them and you get fat.

So, my question now is this. If I still maintain a moderate clean carb intake but separate them from the fats, should I still be safe eating them? I'm not really insulin sensitive - I just love sugar and burgers

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F**k marijuana - legalise steroids!!


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skelooth

Not really sure what you're saying, but low carb does not equate to muscle loss if you do it properly, and there are multiple people who bulk on ketogenic diets to minimize fat gain (They add a midweek carb up to the mix).

I do agree though that meals theoretically should be pro/fat or pro/carb, but our bodies are much more crafty than that so it's really not as important as it seems it is.

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skelooth

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=582590

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Minotaur

I'm doing ckd because I am insulin resistant/pre-diabetic. I cannot tolerate non-veg carbs in any, except the smallest amounts. My weekly recarb consists of a large plate of pasta on Saturday or Sunday, and maybe one other carb meal on the weekend. In the three months between visits with my endocrinologist I've lost 9 lbs, but almost 2" from my waist. My chest, arms, thighs and other measurements haven't gone down, which says I have lost little if any muscle. And I'm doing Max-OT and seeing improvements in my lifts.

And it is possible to bulk on a low carb diet. I haven't done it yet because I need to cut first. But my understanding is that to bulk on a ckd, the calorie ratio is 25xbw.

So, low carbing if done right is not a ticket to Skeletontown.

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Steve_W

Depends on your definition of low carb. For me, anything under 25-30% would be low carb .

Andrew69

I must say that I am loath to add too much to this discussion, because although I do follow a low carb/high protein/moderate fat diet, my results have been vastly superior with respect to fat loss (without ANY cardio I may add), but also at least as good (and I think better) with regards to muscle gain (and yes both at the same time) compared to a high carb type diet (regardless of how clean I ate).

So why do I not wish to add to the discussion then you say?
1. I dont particularly want to be labeled a liar
2. Im tired of being told it is impossible to do both for more than a short period of time.
3. Im sick and tired of being told the only way to add muscle mass is to consume high carbs.

Ill just keep plodding along knowing my waist measurements continue to decrease while my weight continues to rise slowly and steadily (after a short plateau in weight gain).

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Minotaur

Same here. I am wearing pants today that I could hardly close a month or two ago. Today they are actually loose. :dbanana: And my weight has only gone down a few lbs.

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"You monsters are such interesting creatures! I was just saying to my girlfriend, just the other day, 'Monsters are such interesting people! Why I'll bet they lead such interesting lives!' The things you must see and the things you must do! My stars!"

ZackMurphy

Andrew69, Minotaur - the question isn't whether those dietary strategies work (they certainly can - not for everyone, but for some). The question is whether those methods are the most efficient for getting to your goals.

Many people will attack you - that's for sure - for doing anything different from what they themselves are doing. Don't let THAT bother you. But if you have a goal of increased LBM and minimal bodyfat, and if your method works, then cool. Others go after it differently, and that works for them (like me).

I did a lower carb (20-30%) for a while, but my energy levels were too unpredictable, and I was VERY irritable, so it's not for me. But it certainly CAN work.

What kind of macronutrient ratio are you guys on? Just curious.


But Ihateeveryone - how important is it? Not important at all. If it works for you, great, if not, screw it.

Minotaur

I should point out that it was never my intention to do a "nyah nyah" at anyone's post. I'm just deleriously happy that I'm finally seeing results, and now have the confidence that I will reach my goal of losing the excess fat and maintaining the muscle I've built.

I've had my battles with people over my dietary practices; specifically going ultra low carb. It's only when I tell them that I am insulin resistant and at risk for diabetes that they seem to think that ultra low carb is valid. :confused2

Believe me, I love a good sandwich of whole grain bread; yams and sweet taters; oatmeal; brown rice (even white rice, particularly); pasta; regular taters; etc. And I would go back to eating that stuff in a NY minute if I could. But experience has taught me that stuff is poison to me.

My current ratios (past 2 week average acc. to fitday) are:

Total: 2222 calories
Fat: 146g 60%
Carbs: 27g 4%
Protein: 202g 37%

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"You monsters are such interesting creatures! I was just saying to my girlfriend, just the other day, 'Monsters are such interesting people! Why I'll bet they lead such interesting lives!' The things you must see and the things you must do! My stars!"

Andrew69

Zack,
I didnt know you where here too?
Damn this place has all the best and brightest

Good points (as per usual), but starting out as a FFB (former fat boy), overall muscle gain is secondary to me compared with how lean that gain is.

Its interesting you say that when you got down 25-30% you felt like shit, cause so did I, until I dropped the ratio right down to below 10%. Thats when all the cool stuff stated to happen (training was EXACTLY the same HST).

I worked out my macros a while back at about 50% pro/ 5 % carbs/ 45% fat and little has changed since then. Maybe it the high pro ratio leading to gluconeogenesis? I dont know.

Bar two carb refeeds per week (squeaky clean), I still have some carbs pre-WO (very very small hit of about 5-10g dex along with my whey) and then 1/2 cup ground oats in skim milk PWO (along with whey and casein).
Otherwise I have very low (active) carbs on none workout days.

Suits me just fine

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Phosphate bond

No such thing as only burn carbs or only fats. If they are equal in concentration the cells will metabolize them 50/50. Respiratory quotients under different macro nutrient ratios are reflective of this.

However....

The pancreas is a fuel burning organ just like any other and insulin is released in relation to how much glucose it oxidizes. Now here is the tricky part, when it sees too much fat this will inhibit insulin release in a "tonic fashion", but as soon as glucose levels rise this same inhibition later amplifies the total amount of insulin released (the area under the curve increases). Some of this also due to the effects of saturated fat oxidation occuring in skeletal muscle which enhances insulin resistance there as a survival mechansim. This can lead to spillover to adipose in times of excess.

skelooth

CKD ratios are 65% fat, 30% protein, and 5% carbs, but I eat enough green veggies that it goes more like 60/30/10. On carb ups we switch the fat ratio with the carb ratio and eat over maintenance.

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Andrew69

Without trying to get too technical (cause I cant ), even this is very simplied isn't it?
I mean your not taking into account physical activity and the energy needs of the body at all.
If what you say is correct, then I could simply cut by lifting weights as even with intense exercise and the depletion of fuel sources such as ATP and glycogen, fats and carbs are metabolised 50:50.

I think that is what Ihateeveryone meant.

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Phosphate bond

That's how it works though. Cells oxidize mixed fuels all the time.

Well sure hormones modify fuel availablity because insulin induced formation of triglycerides obviously reduces free fatty acids, etc.

Then there is also hormonal influences on the carnitine shuttle (but that applies only to long chain fatty acids which need carnitine and is not absolutely on/off either)

But if the fuel is available in the blood stream the cells will oxidize it and that is why I wonder why you said I'm not taking into consideration the energy needs of the cell?

Phosphate bond

Not sure what you mean here? 50:50 is just a hypothetical number I threw out. The %V02 max you are training at determines the actual percentages as well as your fitness.

Phosphate bond

I haven't read all the posts in this thread just yet, but there is one important thing that must be taken into consideration whenever you ask a general open ended question like this......

The quality and type of exercise you do has just as much impact on partitioning as diet.


Therefore I say that you cannot evaluate a macronutrient profile without the workout program and general day to day activities along side it and give an accurate answer. They are not separate.

Andrew69

I totally agree with this, but when the only thing I did change was my diet and the results were vastly different....

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