What happens if I DON'T drink a PWO shake...

**skelooth** · 07-14-2006, 03:54 PM

I have seen articles that go as far as saying that a pwo shake will determine if you gain or LOSE muscle.....

So what is the TRUTH????

Is the importance of a pwo shake overblown? And if so, to what extent?

**A.FreeRadical** · 07-14-2006, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

I have seen articles that go as far as saying that a pwo shake will determine if you gain or LOSE muscle.....

So what is the TRUTH????

Is the importance of a pwo shake overblown? And if so, to what extent?

A good question. Personally, I think the pwo/ insulin spike is a bit overblown. I think it is more important to have a constant supply of protein throughout the day with no gaps. I eat a carb meal prior to working out and doing cardio. During my 2 hour plus session of lifting and cardio, I suck on a shaker bottle of whey protein (3 scoops with water). When I get home I eat a can of tuna or a cup of tuna fish salad and some form of low glycemic carbs.

I am still cutting so I don't see much muscle growth either way. I may experiment with the pwo shake when I am bulking.

*

**madman911** · 07-14-2006, 05:45 PM

In a previous thread of yours Skel, I posted a link to this paper:

Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects

The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 ± 19% and +77 ± 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 ± 0.006 vs. 0.061 ± 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 ± 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/288/4/E645

The body's initial response to resistance training is to go catabolic if there is inadequate nutritional support post-workout. I advocate an intra-workout shake (simple carb + protein) followed post-workout by a meal of protein + complex carb + BCAA.

**madman911** · 07-14-2006, 06:10 PM

Just want to add that even if you are taking in lots of protein throughout the day, don't underestimate the effect that an intense 45-minute to 1 hour lifting session is going to have on your body. Think about the amount of work you are asking your body to do in that brief time period. Glycogen will be depleted, concurrently with plamsa lipids and BCAA; finally your body will break down skeletal muscle for use as energy and you are then in a catabolic state. If you follow the formula of:

BCAA pre-workout
Intra-workout shake
Protein + Carbs + BCAA 30-40 minutes post-workout

You can't go wrong, all the bases are covered, you are virtually GUARANTEEING anabolism.

Carbs are extremely important too, not just protein. While carbs alone don't have an anabolic effect, they are important for maximizing the utilization of ingested protein -- the insulin spike blunts cortisol release and maximizes transport of amino acids into the muscle cells.

My own experience is that the science bares out in training. I am preserving muscle very well on my present cut, while losing fat at a consistent rate of more than 1lb/week. I can't wait to see how much better my bulking will go when I implement this approach.

BTW, Skel... I know you probably know most of the stuff I discussed here, but I wanted to include the info for the edification of others who might happen upon it. If you can't tell, I feel really strongly about proper nutrional support for workouts... to me it is THE key to getting the most out of what you do in the weightroom.

**Peaked_18** · 07-14-2006, 06:15 PM

It is very important to get a post workout shake.

**skelooth** · 07-14-2006, 06:16 PM

I love you madman. Because like most madmen, you are a genius.

Quote:

Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials.

I actually did read this before, I forget which thread it was in, regardless... It makes sense that protein balance would be negative (durr) but does this really equate to losing muscle in the long run? Can you build muscle and a nice lean muscular physique WITHOUT a pwo shake?

**DJSTARER** · 07-14-2006, 06:21 PM

Skel, if your question is: Do you need FOOD pwo, then the answer to your quesiton is YES YES YES.

If it is do I need it in SHAKE FORM, then things get more complicated.

While gaining mass, the importance of a shake PWO is lessened greatly. You are in a (generally) saturated state, and have extra carbs sitting around. Things that may alter this in a state of mass gain will be lifting in the morning, having LONG duration training sessions and/or do cardio after a resistance sesssion.

While cutting, it is more important to keep things more simpe (fast digesting) post training.

Just use common sense. IMO, protein should ALWAYS have a fast acting component Post training. Carbs should be in whole food form.

This all comes back to the age old question: simple or complex after a session.

Answer: Too many variables. Understand the variables and apply the information to your own situation.

Don't forget your multi

**madman911** · 07-14-2006, 06:38 PM

Sure, you can... lots of people have. Question is, did they do it optimally? How much quicker and more impressive could their results have been? Eventually, probably within a few hours post-workout (I haven't seen any actual data regarding the timetable) the body will pull out of catabolism and go anabolic as long as you get protein into your body within a reasonable amount of time and maintain a daily high intake of protein. But, now your body has to recover from the initial catabolism before it can even begin the process of hypertrophy; essentially you dig a little pit for yourself that you must climb out of before you can go anywhere.

Jeff Rage · 07-14-2006, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

I have seen articles that go as far as saying that a pwo shake will determine if you gain or LOSE muscle.....

Yeah, that's completely false.

There's lot of contraversy about what shoudl be eaten PWO. Some people swear by having carbs PWO, others say it doesn't matter.

Your pre workout nutrition is probablly much more importatnt.

Your daily totals are going to the be the biggest determination as to whther or not you're gaining or losing anything.

**madman911** · 07-14-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARTER

Skel, if your question is: Do you need FOOD pwo, then the answer to your quesiton is YES YES YES.

Here we agree totally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARTER

While gaining mass, the importance of a shake PWO is lessened greatly. You are in a (generally) saturated state, and have extra carbs sitting around. Things that may alter this in a state of mass gain will be lifting in the morning, having LONG duration training sessions and/or do cardio after a resistance sesssion.

Here I disagree, at least partially. If you want optimal results from both cutting and bulking, you should always have the optimal nutritional support surrounding your workouts. For cutting it is absolutely critical for preserving mass and when bulking you want to get the best return on the effort you're investing.

Carbs do not "sit around" as if on a sideline waiting for their turn to play. True, your glycogen stores are more likely to be saturated while bulking, but during an intense workout, they are rapidly depleted and the same catabolic process begins. The fate of the macronutrients you consume is rapidly decided upon absorption; they are either put to immediate use or stored.

Quote:

While cutting, it is more important to keep things more simpe (fast digesting) post training.

Just use common sense. IMO, protein should ALWAYS have a fast acting component Post training. Carbs should be in whole food form.

This all comes back to the age old question: simple or complex after a session.

Simple carbs are fantastic for intra-workout, when you are rapidly depleting glycogen and a quickly absorbed sugar will immediately be used to directly fuel the workout/replace glycogen. Simple carbs + protein intra-workout will also have the effect of blunting cortisol release. Post-workout, complex carbs are a much better choice, as they will stabilize blood sugar. You don't want to be hypoglycemic post-workout; you'll have a major hunger attack and feel lethargic.

**Fitnfirm** · 07-14-2006, 09:06 PM

you will go blind, and all your hair will fall out, Plus your feet will grow 3-4 sizes!!!!!!! Is that what you want???????????

**madman911** · 07-14-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Rage

Yeah, that's completely false.

There's lot of contraversy about what shoudl be eaten PWO. Some people swear by having carbs PWO, others say it doesn't matter.

Your pre workout nutrition is probablly much more importatnt.

Your daily totals are going to the be the biggest determination as to whther or not you're gaining or losing anything.

Again, it is about doing what is optimal. We all bust our asses in the gym and I don't know about you, but I want the maximum return on my investment. Why would pre-workout nutrition be more important than intra, or post? They are all important.

Here are a few more abstracts that are from just some of the papers that I've read to form my opinions in this area. Trust me when I say I am well read on the subject (I am a biologist by profession) and research from many different labs all come to essentially the same conclusion. I know I'm a bit fanatical about this topic, but it is one of the few areas of bodybuilding where there are a lot of well done studies, in human subjects, that across the board demonstrate a definitive anabolic benefit.

Liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion during a short-term bout of resistance exercise suppresses myofibrillar protein degradation.

Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.

School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Bathurst, NSW 2795, Australia. sbird@csu.edu.au

A number of physiological events including the level of contractile activity, nutrient status, and hormonal action influence the magnitude of exercise-induced skeletal muscle growth. However, it is not the independent action of a single mechanism, but the complex interaction between events that enhance the long-term adaptations to resistance training. The purpose of the present investigation was to examine the influence of liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion during resistance exercise and modification of the immediate hormonal response on myofibrillar protein degradation as assessed by 3-methylhistidine (3-MH) excretion. After a 4-hour fast, 32 untrained young men (18-29 years) performed a single bout of resistance exercise (complete body; 3 setsx10 repetitions at 75% of 1-repetition maximum; 1-minute rest between sets), during which they consumed a 6% CHO (n=8) solution, a 6-g EAA (n=8) mixture, a combined CHO+EAA (n=8) supplement, or placebo (PLA; n=8) beverage. Resistance exercise performed in conjunction with CHO and CHO+EAA ingestion resulted in significantly elevated (P<.001) glucose and insulin concentrations above baseline, whereas EAA ingestion only increased the postexercise insulin response (P<.05). Time matched at 60 minutes, the PLA group exhibited a peak cortisol increase of 105% (P<.001) with no significant change in glucose or insulin concentrations. Conversely, the CHO and CHO+EAA groups displayed a decrease in cortisol levels of 11% and 7%, respectively. Coinciding with these hormonal response patterns were significant differences in myofibrillar protein degradation. Ingestion of the EAA and CHO treatments attenuated 3-MH excretion 48 hours after the exercise bout. Moreover, this response was synergistically potentiated when the 2 treatments were combined, with CHO+EAA ingestion resulting in a 27% reduction (P<.01) in 3-MH excretion. In contrast, the PLA group displayed a 56% increase (P<.01) in 3-MH excretion. These data demonstrate that not only does CHO and EAA ingestion during the exercise bout suppress exercise-induced cortisol release; the stimulatory effect of resistance exercise on myofibrillar protein degradation can be attenuated, most dramatically when the treatments are combined (CHO+EAA). Through an "anticatabolic effect," this altered balance may better favor the conservation of myofibrillar protein

Promoting training adaptations through nutritional interventions.

Hawley JA, Tipton KD, Millard-Stafford ML.

School of Medical Sciences, RMIT University, Bundoora, VIC, Australia. john.hawley@rmit.edu.au

Training and nutrition are highly interrelated in that optimal adaptation to the demands of repeated training sessions typically requires a diet that can sustain muscle energy reserves. As nutrient stores (i.e. muscle and liver glycogen) play a predominant role in the performance of prolonged, intense, intermittent exercise typical of the patterns of soccer match-play, and in the replenishment of energy reserves for subsequent training sessions, the extent to which acutely altering substrate availability might modify the training impulse has been a key research area among exercise physiologists and sport nutritionists for several decades. Although the major perturbations to cellular homeostasis and muscle substrate stores occur during exercise, the activation of several major signalling pathways important for chronic training adaptations take place during the first few hours of recovery, returning to baseline values within 24 h after exercise. This has led to the paradigm that many chronic training adaptations are generated by the cumulative effects of the transient events that occur during recovery from each (acute) exercise bout. Evidence is accumulating that nutrient supplementation can serve as a potent modulator of many of the acute responses to both endurance and resistance training. In this article, we review the molecular and cellular events that occur in skeletal muscle during exercise and subsequent recovery, and the potential for nutrient supplementation (e.g. carbohydrate, fat, protein) to affect many of the adaptive responses to training.

Skeletal muscle protein metabolism and resistance exercise.

Wolfe RR.

Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch and Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Hospital, Galveston, TX, USA. rwolfe@utmb.edu

Stable isotope tracer techniques have been developed to quantify rates of muscle protein synthesis and breakdown in human subjects. These methods were applied to the study of the response to resistance exercise as well as to amino acid intake. The fractional synthetic rate (FSR) of muscle protein is stimulated for as long as 48 h following exercise. However, the anabolic effect of the stimulation of FSR after exercise is blunted by a simultaneous increase in muscle protein breakdown, such that the net balance between synthesis and breakdown remains negative in the fasted state. Elevation of plasma amino acids stimulates muscle protein synthesis. The extent of the stimulation is dependent on the dose, the profile of amino acids given, the pattern of ingestion (bolus vs. constant intake), the age of the subject, and the hormonal profile. Importantly, there is an interactive effect between resistance exercise and amino acids, such that the net anabolic response to amino acids following exercise is greater than the sum of the amino acid effects and the exercise effects alone.

**DJSTARER** · 07-14-2006, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madman911

Here we agree totally.

Here I disagree, at least partially. If you want optimal results from both cutting and bulking, you should always have the optimal nutritional support surrounding your workouts. For cutting it is absolutely critical for preserving mass and when bulking you want to get the best return on the effort you're investing.

Carbs do not "sit around" as if on a sideline waiting for their turn to play. True, your glycogen stores are more likely to be saturated while bulking, but during an intense workout, they are rapidly depleted and the same catabolic process begins. The fate of the macronutrients you consume is rapidly decided upon absorption; they are either put to immediate use or stored.

Simple carbs are fantastic for intra-workout, when you are rapidly depleting glycogen and a quickly absorbed sugar will immediately be used to directly fuel the workout/replace glycogen. Simple carbs + protein intra-workout will also have the effect of blunting cortisol release. Post-workout, complex carbs are a much better choice, as they will stabilize blood sugar. You don't want to be hypoglycemic post-workout; you'll have a major hunger attack and feel lethargic.

Okay, I will rebut in a friendly manner.

First, I noticed you used the word BULKING. Well, you were absolutly right to use that word if you are going to consume sugar during a MASS GAINING cycle. Notice I call it mass gaining. I now believe bulking is uneeded. Although I did it in the past, and I consumed dextrose+protein, I now understand, due to MY set of variables, that is not needed. My workouts are intense and efficient. The only time a person depletes their glycogen store is on a very long run. Working out does not use as much glucose as people thing. It is very taxing on muscles, but need for sugar PWO is heavily overdone. Although chemicals will play an issue eventually (things like cortisol), they only help burn fat during and for a period after the workout. If you consume sugar after working out, you are only killing your bodies effect to optimize the fat burn afterwards.
I will admit sugar is superior for overall growth, many people should not
consume it PWO due to it's ability to pack on the unwanted adipose.

Idealy, everyone should figure this out for themselves. This is why it is sooooo debated. Notice the variables I mentioned. What is true for you may not be true for someone else. My workouts last no more than 60 minutes. I know guys who have a lot of success with 2 or 3 hour workouts. These are the people that need dextrose. I am simply adding stimulus in between two of my normal daily meal (obviously a little larger meals to compensate for the 200 kcals i may burn in glucose and fat during my workout).

During a cut, everything is changed. I don't want my workouts to be my means of weightloss. Instead, I will rely on my diet during the day and low intensity cardio to have the dieting effects. I want to stop all catibolic activities after my cutting workout. My workout during a cut is simply for muscular stimulous (hypertrophy). My diet is for fat loss. Sugar is good on a cut because it STOPS all the catabolic activities.

**madman911** · 07-15-2006, 07:28 AM

I wasn't rude or unfriendly to you DJ, was I? I'm sorry if you took it that way, I thought I was just disagreeing with you. We don't have to see eye to eye on everything; debate is fun. Disagreement doesn't mean direspect. So allow me to retort.

I'm not sure how you differentiate mass gaining and bulking. Please explain the difference. Your argument is unclear because I don't understand how you are using the terms.

Glycogen stores are virtually impossible to deplete to the point of being empty because your body both replenishes gylcogen as it is used and also increased the use of other energy substrates to slow the rate of glycogen depletion. The word depletion doesn't mean to the point of being completely gone, it means to be decreased in fullness. I am totally correct in saying that glycogen stores are rapidly depleted during weight training... the exact depletion rate varies depending on many factors; I've seen one study where six sets of leg extensions at 35% and 75% of 1RM resulted in depletions of 38% and 39% respectively.

I don't think one size fits all, but I do know that physiology is physiology. The basic biochemistry of our bodies is fundamentally the same from individual to individual. Your muscles use glycogen as a primary fuel source, so do mine... when glycogen is depleted your skeletal muscle BCAA will be oxidized if you don't have nutritional support that elevates plasma BCAA and sugar levels, and so will mine.

I disagree with your assertion that PWO carbs will promote fat gain. That is only a serious issue if you also consume a hefty serving of dietary fat with the PWO meal, which I would not suggest.

07-14-2006, 03:54 PM	#1
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 8,041 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 160	What happens if I DON'T drink a PWO shake... I have seen articles that go as far as saying that a pwo shake will determine if you gain or LOSE muscle..... So what is the TRUTH???? Is the importance of a pwo shake overblown? And if so, to what extent? __________________

07-14-2006, 05:45 PM	#3
madman911 Metamorphosizing Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston Area Posts: 1,523 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 60	In a previous thread of yours Skel, I posted a link to this paper: Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 ± 19% and +77 ± 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 ± 0.006 vs. 0.061 ± 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 ± 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only. http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/288/4/E645 The body's initial response to resistance training is to go catabolic if there is inadequate nutritional support post-workout. I advocate an intra-workout shake (simple carb + protein) followed post-workout by a meal of protein + complex carb + BCAA. __________________ Millennium Sport Technologies Sponsored Athlete http://www.millenniumsport.net IMPC 2006 Novice Division Champ IMPC 2007 Open Division Champ Never underestimate the power of the bandana. Last edited by madman911 : 07-14-2006 at 06:18 PM.

07-14-2006, 06:10 PM	#4
madman911 Metamorphosizing Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston Area Posts: 1,523 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 60	Just want to add that even if you are taking in lots of protein throughout the day, don't underestimate the effect that an intense 45-minute to 1 hour lifting session is going to have on your body. Think about the amount of work you are asking your body to do in that brief time period. Glycogen will be depleted, concurrently with plamsa lipids and BCAA; finally your body will break down skeletal muscle for use as energy and you are then in a catabolic state. If you follow the formula of: BCAA pre-workout Intra-workout shake Protein + Carbs + BCAA 30-40 minutes post-workout You can't go wrong, all the bases are covered, you are virtually GUARANTEEING anabolism. Carbs are extremely important too, not just protein. While carbs alone don't have an anabolic effect, they are important for maximizing the utilization of ingested protein -- the insulin spike blunts cortisol release and maximizes transport of amino acids into the muscle cells. My own experience is that the science bares out in training. I am preserving muscle very well on my present cut, while losing fat at a consistent rate of more than 1lb/week. I can't wait to see how much better my bulking will go when I implement this approach. BTW, Skel... I know you probably know most of the stuff I discussed here, but I wanted to include the info for the edification of others who might happen upon it. If you can't tell, I feel really strongly about proper nutrional support for workouts... to me it is THE key to getting the most out of what you do in the weightroom. __________________ Millennium Sport Technologies Sponsored Athlete http://www.millenniumsport.net IMPC 2006 Novice Division Champ IMPC 2007 Open Division Champ Never underestimate the power of the bandana.

07-14-2006, 06:21 PM	#7
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 3,979 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 113	Skel, if your question is: Do you need FOOD pwo, then the answer to your quesiton is YES YES YES. If it is do I need it in SHAKE FORM, then things get more complicated. While gaining mass, the importance of a shake PWO is lessened greatly. You are in a (generally) saturated state, and have extra carbs sitting around. Things that may alter this in a state of mass gain will be lifting in the morning, having LONG duration training sessions and/or do cardio after a resistance sesssion. While cutting, it is more important to keep things more simpe (fast digesting) post training. Just use common sense. IMO, protein should ALWAYS have a fast acting component Post training. Carbs should be in whole food form. This all comes back to the age old question: simple or complex after a session. Answer: Too many variables. Understand the variables and apply the information to your own situation. Don't forget your multi __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: 500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

07-14-2006, 06:38 PM	#8
madman911 Metamorphosizing Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston Area Posts: 1,523 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 60	Sure, you can... lots of people have. Question is, did they do it optimally? How much quicker and more impressive could their results have been? Eventually, probably within a few hours post-workout (I haven't seen any actual data regarding the timetable) the body will pull out of catabolism and go anabolic as long as you get protein into your body within a reasonable amount of time and maintain a daily high intake of protein. But, now your body has to recover from the initial catabolism before it can even begin the process of hypertrophy; essentially you dig a little pit for yourself that you must climb out of before you can go anywhere. __________________ Millennium Sport Technologies Sponsored Athlete http://www.millenniumsport.net IMPC 2006 Novice Division Champ IMPC 2007 Open Division Champ Never underestimate the power of the bandana.

07-14-2006, 06:15 PM	#5
Peaked_18 a la commode Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,297 Recipes: 2 Rep Power: 96	It is very important to get a post workout shake.

07-14-2006, 09:06 PM	#11
Fitnfirm Spanky Doodle ! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Muscle Land Posts: 1,829 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 45	you will go blind, and all your hair will fall out, Plus your feet will grow 3-4 sizes!!!!!!! Is that what you want???????????

07-15-2006, 07:28 AM	#14
madman911 Metamorphosizing Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston Area Posts: 1,523 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 60	I wasn't rude or unfriendly to you DJ, was I? I'm sorry if you took it that way, I thought I was just disagreeing with you. We don't have to see eye to eye on everything; debate is fun. Disagreement doesn't mean direspect. So allow me to retort. I'm not sure how you differentiate mass gaining and bulking. Please explain the difference. Your argument is unclear because I don't understand how you are using the terms. Glycogen stores are virtually impossible to deplete to the point of being empty because your body both replenishes gylcogen as it is used and also increased the use of other energy substrates to slow the rate of glycogen depletion. The word depletion doesn't mean to the point of being completely gone, it means to be decreased in fullness. I am totally correct in saying that glycogen stores are rapidly depleted during weight training... the exact depletion rate varies depending on many factors; I've seen one study where six sets of leg extensions at 35% and 75% of 1RM resulted in depletions of 38% and 39% respectively. I don't think one size fits all, but I do know that physiology is physiology. The basic biochemistry of our bodies is fundamentally the same from individual to individual. Your muscles use glycogen as a primary fuel source, so do mine... when glycogen is depleted your skeletal muscle BCAA will be oxidized if you don't have nutritional support that elevates plasma BCAA and sugar levels, and so will mine. I disagree with your assertion that PWO carbs will promote fat gain. That is only a serious issue if you also consume a hefty serving of dietary fat with the PWO meal, which I would not suggest. __________________ Millennium Sport Technologies Sponsored Athlete http://www.millenniumsport.net IMPC 2006 Novice Division Champ IMPC 2007 Open Division Champ Never underestimate the power of the bandana.