Theoretically, what happens if you eat maintenance calories but still train hard?

**skelooth** · 09-28-2005, 02:37 AM

IE, if I am eating maintenance calories every day (3,000) while doing cardio 4-5x a week and lifting weights 4x a week... what will happen? Will body recomposition still occur, just at a slower pace?

**EME** · 09-28-2005, 02:47 AM

One thing to remember is that "Maintenance Calories" is a relative term.
It's relative to how hard, and how much you are training.

If you are really hitting it hard, your level of calories required to "Maintain" your weight will be higher.

If you truly are taking in your exact level of Maintenance calories and training hard... whether or not body recomposition occurs will most likely be the result of the two factors below:

A: How long you have been training.
People new to training have an easier time actually gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time, because training is such a shock on the system it produces dramatic results.

B: Nutrient Timing
It isn't only the amount of calories you take in, but when you take them in that will determine your results. If you properly time your carb intake so that your carbs go to refilling glycogen stores and fueling your daily activity and training, so that your protein is totally available for building muscle; and, if you time your protein consumption so that it is spread out well during the day to provide maximum absorbtion, you can possibly do some body recomposition at maintenance level.

However, you probably already know, this isnt the most effective method to truly create dramatic body recomposition.

If everything with regard to your diet and training is perfect, you may see some recomposition at maintenance level calories... however, you may very well see a whole lot of maintenance, and not much visible change.

The end result will depend on how well you can dial in your diet and nutrient timing, as well as your training history, and ultimately your genetics.

- EME

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

IE, if I am eating maintenance calories every day (3,000) while doing cardio 4-5x a week and lifting weights 4x a week... what will happen? Will body recomposition still occur, just at a slower pace?

**skelooth** · 09-28-2005, 11:00 AM

Thanks! So basically, it's either bulk or cut, and there really is no in between :p

**Sixpack** · 09-28-2005, 11:56 AM

IMO yes there is you can maintain your current weight and basically figure out your activity level and cals burned for an estimate etc. Your weight may change by a pound or 2 daily based on many factors the water you take in etc. Too me that is basically maintaining your weight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

Thanks! So basically, it's either bulk or cut, and there really is no in between :p

Steve_W · 09-28-2005, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

Thanks! So basically, it's either bulk or cut, and there really is no in between :p

It really depends. Sometimes I have more important things on concentrate on than cutting or bulking, so I'll eat around "maintenance" and commence my usual training to keep healthy and in shape. It really depends on your personal situation.

**skelooth** · 09-29-2005, 11:56 AM

The reason I asked is because i keep eating 'maintenance' calories due to lack of willpower. Since I'm on a CKD the difference between cutting and maintaining is literally a 2 extra chicken wings in a day, or an extra handful of walnuts... My target cutting calories are around 2400 I think.... because I feel weak and lethargic if I go much below that. Which is understandable since I do so much exercise. I've been eating around 2800 cals a day lately 'against my will' lol.

Steve_W · 09-29-2005, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

The reason I asked is because i keep eating 'maintenance' calories due to lack of willpower. Since I'm on a CKD the difference between cutting and maintaining is literally a 2 extra chicken wings in a day, or an extra handful of walnuts... My target cutting calories are around 2400 I think.... because I feel weak and lethargic if I go much below that. Which is understandable since I do so much exercise. I've been eating around 2800 cals a day lately 'against my will' lol.

If you want my honest opinion, I would say drop the CKD. It psychologically seems to do you more harm than good. I've got a quite bit of endo tendencies and I get fat relatively easily being an FFB (Formerly Fat boy) if I don't watch my diet. Personally I get the best results cutting with a fairly isocaloric diet, dieting for about 48-72 hours and refeeding for 12 hours, except it's a more moderate refeed. Maintenance calories x 1.2-1.5 depending on how I feel, with about 400-600g of carb, moderate protein, low fat. I keep a small deficit (300-500kcal) because otherwise I have extremely bad hunger. This is not only a less drastic, more sustainable approach, but I keep my sex drive (still not performing to the max, but no complaints from the girls

), I have energy, and I feel ok. Please don't take this the wrong way and obviously I don't know you very well, but I honestly don't think CKD is for you.

**skelooth** · 09-29-2005, 12:42 PM

CKD is very much for me

I eat a "clean" ckd, and I'm considering writing a little blurb about how I've modified my ckd. Basically I do not eat any processed meats like bacon or sausage, I keep dairy to a very bare minimum, and I get the majority of my fats from a variety of vegetable oils, fish oil, and flax meal. It's very sustainable (and healthy) as a long term diet change.

Everyone is VERY fast to accuse CKD of "maybe it's not for you" and "That is not healthy" and "You need carbs to lift" and "blah blah blah", but the truth is, it's all BS. There is no offense meant to you, but I'm starting to get more than annoyed that any time I include the letters CKD into one of my posts, someone has to pop in and say "Well I think you should eat carbs".

Do I go into other people's threads and say "Well I don't think a carb diet is right for you" ???

Steve_W · 09-29-2005, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

CKD is very much for me

I eat a "clean" ckd, and I'm considering writing a little blurb about how I've modified my ckd. Basically I do not eat any processed meats like bacon or sausage, I keep dairy to a very bare minimum, and I get the majority of my fats from a variety of vegetable oils, fish oil, and flax meal. It's very sustainable (and healthy) as a long term diet change.

Everyone is VERY fast to accuse CKD of "maybe it's not for you" and "That is not healthy" and "You need carbs to lift" and "blah blah blah", but the truth is, it's all BS. There is no offense meant to you, but I'm starting to get more than annoyed that any time I include the letters CKD into one of my posts, someone has to pop in and say "Well I think you should eat carbs".

Do I go into other people's threads and say "Well I don't think a carb diet is right for you" ???

Heheh, lack of carbs making you cranky :fingersxd Nah, just playing. I didn't mean that the wrong way at all, I just thought maybe a more moderate approach would be better suited and if that doesn't work out, then return back to CKD was my thinking. Sorry if I offended you, but general mass lack of carbs + huge carb ups really aren't terribly healthy in the long run, and that's a fact.

**EME** · 09-29-2005, 01:25 PM

Down Boy... LOL

Ske... people are just trying to help you because you are posting that you are having a hard time staying on your own diet.

I think people are just giving you some options, since you asked.

Remember, the best diet strategy in the world won't work if you can't follow it!

If you are truly having difficulty staying on your plan, it might be time to try something else..... Otherwise... you're going to have to get the willpower to stick with it man!

When you eat maintenance level calories... that's pretty much what you'll do... maintain. Don't expect a whole lot of physical change at a maintenance level of caloric intake.

- EME

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

CKD is very much for me

.....but I'm starting to get more than annoyed that any time I include the letters CKD into one of my posts, someone has to pop in and say "Well I think you should eat carbs".

Do I go into other people's threads and say "Well I don't think a carb diet is right for you" ???

Steve_W · 09-29-2005, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EME

Down Boy... LOL

Ske... people are just trying to help you because you are posting that you are having a hard time staying on your own diet.

I think people are just giving you some options, since you asked.

Remember, the best diet strategy in the world won't work if you can't follow it!

If you are truly having difficulty staying on your plan, it might be time to try something else..... Otherwise... you're going to have to get the willpower to stick with it man!

When you eat maintenance level calories... that's pretty much what you'll do... maintain. Don't expect a whole lot of physical change at a maintenance level of caloric intake.

- EME

I agree with this, this is pretty much what I was trying to say.

As far as I see it, CKD, UD2 and those type of more "extreme" diets are mainly used by models, bodybuilders etc who need to get a very low BF% for a short amount of time, and don't care about the rebound. For recreational bbers like myself who want the more lean look however don't wanna be HYOOOOOGE or go right down into the low digits, I feel a more moderate approach is far better suited. Slow and steady wins the race, the slower you lose your fat, the longer you are likely to keep it off.

The problems I see with long term CKD is psychologically, long term it isn't smart. Eating healthy and then binging (or wanting to) on the weekends isn't a sustainable, long term lifestyle change. I'm going to list the pros and cons of continuous low carb dieting (like really low), because unless you're super obese/bed-ridden/need to get super lean in a short period of time and don't care about rebound, there are more cons than pros, imo:

Pros:

-it can help alleviate acute seizure disorder.
-it can help alleviate hypertriacylglycerolemia (I think I spelt that right

) in bed-ridden patients.
-it can improve lean mass retention in bed-ridden patients versus a high carb/low protein diet.
-it decriminalises dietary fat.

The cons:

-most long term low carbers have substandard glycolytic rep range strength.
-most low term low carbers have substandard endurance.
-hemorroids from infrequent yet huge bowel movements are a common complaint of long term low carb dieters.
-most long term real low carb dieters are yo-yo dieters who generally look out of shape most of the time (sorry, but the truth is the truth and this isn't relating to you skelooth, so please don't get angry! :mask: ).
-long term low carb diets have poor long-term success in published research.

-If someone describes to me how they want to look, most of them describe the look of a light-heavyweight boxers or sprinters. Good size, yet ripped. Living on mega low carbs never got anyone this look.

I don't want to start a raging war, or offend anyone so please no one take this the wrong way, if anyone has any question about any of my comments, feel free to ask and I can elaborate further.

I think many people who go too low carb remain frustrated with their gains amd their potential for getting the physiques they keep banging their heads against a wall to try to achieve. I also believe depletion and loading is overrated and potentially more counterproductive than it's worth.

**skelooth** · 09-29-2005, 11:14 PM

I *might* start phasing carbs back in after i'm doing running my white/blue/green log... big might

Sorry if I came off snippy, it wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the general lack of acceptance for low carb diets. There is no "perfect" diet, but because CKD seems like (on the surface) a bacon and sausage fest with pig outs on saturdays, it gets the LEAST amount of acceptance. When in all truth, it's far from it. I eat more green vegetables in a day than a lot of typical people eat in a week. My fiber intake has actually improved on this diet.

Steve_W · 09-29-2005, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

I *might* start phasing carbs back in after i'm doing running my white/blue/green log... big might

Sorry if I came off snippy, it wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the general lack of acceptance for low carb diets. There is no "perfect" diet, but because CKD seems like (on the surface) a bacon and sausage fest with pig outs on saturdays, it gets the LEAST amount of acceptance. When in all truth, it's far from it. I eat more green vegetables in a day than a lot of typical people eat in a week. My fiber intake has actually improved on this diet.

No offence taken and sounds like a good plan. Feel free to ask if you need some help setting up a diet.

**skelooth** · 09-29-2005, 11:31 PM

I know how to diet :P My first 60lbs of fat loss came from a 40/40/20 diet. Another misconception (again, not directing this at you, just at the masses in general) is that I've always been low carb and I obviously have no idea how to eat a healthy low fat diet. When in fact my current CKDiet is a lot cleaner than most people's regardless of their diet.

Really not trying to be snippy, but I am feeling a bit defensive.

The problem of me eating an extra 300 calories a day is not specific to CKD, it is specific to the fact that I am in constant motion throughout much of the day and I work up a HUGE appetite. Just an extra half of chicken breast and extra broccoli with extra olive oil at 'dinner' is enough to push me up really close to maintenance, then if I'm not careful with my final meal (when i'm usually my hungriest unfortunately) just an extra quarter cup of cottage cheese pushes me right into maintenance.

**powerman2000** · 09-29-2005, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EME

One thing to remember is that "Maintenance Calories" is a relative term.
It's relative to how hard, and how much you are training.

If you are really hitting it hard, your level of calories required to "Maintain" your weight will be higher.

If you truly are taking in your exact level of Maintenance calories and training hard... whether or not body recomposition occurs will most likely be the result of the two factors below:

A: How long you have been training.
People new to training have an easier time actually gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time, because training is such a shock on the system it produces dramatic results.

B: Nutrient Timing
It isn't only the amount of calories you take in, but when you take them in that will determine your results. If you properly time your carb intake so that your carbs go to refilling glycogen stores and fueling your daily activity and training, so that your protein is totally available for building muscle; and, if you time your protein consumption so that it is spread out well during the day to provide maximum absorbtion, you can possibly do some body recomposition at maintenance level.

However, you probably already know, this isnt the most effective method to truly create dramatic body recomposition.

If everything with regard to your diet and training is perfect, you may see some recomposition at maintenance level calories... however, you may very well see a whole lot of maintenance, and not much visible change.

The end result will depend on how well you can dial in your diet and nutrient timing, as well as your training history, and ultimately your genetics.

- EME

Couldn't have said it better myself. Nice post EME.

**skelooth** · 09-29-2005, 11:44 PM

Yeah, that was a good post, btw

It did answer my question.

09-28-2005, 02:37 AM	#1
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	Theoretically, what happens if you eat maintenance calories but still train hard? IE, if I am eating maintenance calories every day (3,000) while doing cardio 4-5x a week and lifting weights 4x a week... what will happen? Will body recomposition still occur, just at a slower pace? __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

09-28-2005, 11:00 AM	#3
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	Thanks! So basically, it's either bulk or cut, and there really is no in between :p __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

09-29-2005, 11:56 AM	#6
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	The reason I asked is because i keep eating 'maintenance' calories due to lack of willpower. Since I'm on a CKD the difference between cutting and maintaining is literally a 2 extra chicken wings in a day, or an extra handful of walnuts... My target cutting calories are around 2400 I think.... because I feel weak and lethargic if I go much below that. Which is understandable since I do so much exercise. I've been eating around 2800 cals a day lately 'against my will' lol. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

09-29-2005, 12:42 PM	#8
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	CKD is very much for me I eat a "clean" ckd, and I'm considering writing a little blurb about how I've modified my ckd. Basically I do not eat any processed meats like bacon or sausage, I keep dairy to a very bare minimum, and I get the majority of my fats from a variety of vegetable oils, fish oil, and flax meal. It's very sustainable (and healthy) as a long term diet change. Everyone is VERY fast to accuse CKD of "maybe it's not for you" and "That is not healthy" and "You need carbs to lift" and "blah blah blah", but the truth is, it's all BS. There is no offense meant to you, but I'm starting to get more than annoyed that any time I include the letters CKD into one of my posts, someone has to pop in and say "Well I think you should eat carbs". Do I go into other people's threads and say "Well I don't think a carb diet is right for you" ??? __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

09-29-2005, 11:14 PM	#12
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	I might start phasing carbs back in after i'm doing running my white/blue/green log... big might Sorry if I came off snippy, it wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the general lack of acceptance for low carb diets. There is no "perfect" diet, but because CKD seems like (on the surface) a bacon and sausage fest with pig outs on saturdays, it gets the LEAST amount of acceptance. When in all truth, it's far from it. I eat more green vegetables in a day than a lot of typical people eat in a week. My fiber intake has actually improved on this diet. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

09-29-2005, 11:31 PM	#14
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	I know how to diet :P My first 60lbs of fat loss came from a 40/40/20 diet. Another misconception (again, not directing this at you, just at the masses in general) is that I've always been low carb and I obviously have no idea how to eat a healthy low fat diet. When in fact my current CKDiet is a lot cleaner than most people's regardless of their diet. Really not trying to be snippy, but I am feeling a bit defensive. The problem of me eating an extra 300 calories a day is not specific to CKD, it is specific to the fact that I am in constant motion throughout much of the day and I work up a HUGE appetite. Just an extra half of chicken breast and extra broccoli with extra olive oil at 'dinner' is enough to push me up really close to maintenance, then if I'm not careful with my final meal (when i'm usually my hungriest unfortunately) just an extra quarter cup of cottage cheese pushes me right into maintenance. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

09-29-2005, 11:44 PM	#16
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	Yeah, that was a good post, btw It did answer my question. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html