How big should my PWO shake be?

**skelooth** · 01-16-2007, 07:58 PM

I am 225lbs, and trying to cut.

I *was* taking 1 scoop of whey and a quarter scoop of maltodextrin. Just recently I upped it to 2 scoops of whey (46g protein) and a half scoop of malto (less than ~25g sugars)

What do you guys think? I'm scared to load up on too much sugar pwo.

**DarkFalcon** · 01-16-2007, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

I am 225lbs, and trying to cut.

I *was* taking 1 scoop of whey and a quarter scoop of maltodextrin. Just recently I upped it to 2 scoops of whey (46g protein) and a half scoop of malto (less than ~25g sugars)

What do you guys think? I'm scared to load up on too much sugar pwo.

What brand of Whey? Might already have enough sugar in it. And 2 scoops is good, one with 40+g's of sugar=

**skelooth** · 01-16-2007, 08:10 PM

I have bodyfortress whey (3g carbs per scoop) and NOW maltodextrin.

I will get more ON when my bodyfortress runs out. I have a supplement dealer here in albany that blows away bb.com's prices. You'd be amazed how many big supplement players are in New York. He is friends with the guy who makes DZL gear, he sells me cases of it for mad cheap

DJohnson · 01-17-2007, 03:06 AM

Your new shake sounds great. Just have a meal within the next 2 hours afterwards.

**romanaz** · 01-17-2007, 03:21 AM

I always have my post-workout meal 30-40 minutes later if I can't help it.

**skelooth** · 01-17-2007, 04:09 AM

Yeah I always wait about an hour and then cook a nice sized meal. Usually, as my log indicates... steamed chicken, broccoli, and oats.

I read something that Arnie wrote that says you should wait 60minutes before eating, so that your body can keep it's energy focused on healing.

**powerman2000** · 01-17-2007, 11:08 AM

Skel, I would stay far away from Malto and Dextrose during a cut.

I recommend eating some good ole fashioned oatmeal with your whey drink instead of using any malto for your carbs.

**skelooth** · 01-17-2007, 02:11 PM

I don't have a grinder dude, and I have like 4lbs of maltodextrin sitting around

I don't take much (IE, 25g is pretty much nothing but a short spike, certainly not enough to restore glycogen). I use the PWO shake to spike my insulin and *hopefully* shuttle the protein into my muscles. Then 60 minutes later I try to follow with a full meal that includes a good portion of starchy carbs (either ww pasta, oats, or sweet potato).

The whole oatmeal vs dextrose vs maltodextrin thing has been getting argued forever.

**DJSTARER** · 01-17-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Skel, I would stay far away from Malto and Dextrose during a cut.

I recommend eating some good ole fashioned oatmeal with your whey drink instead of using any malto for your carbs.

interesting. I've always been of the school of thought where sugar PWO is more important on a cut due to one's generally unfed state. I mean, I can see why you'd go with oats for general fat burn, but during a cut, I never rely on my exercise for fat loss. It's all about training to mainain strength and the rest of the diet for fat loss.

**skelooth** · 01-17-2007, 06:36 PM

^but i'm the stereotypical endo where fat loss is ridiculously hard sometimes. So I see the validity of using oats as opposed to sugar.

I don't know what your bodytype is?

**DJSTARER** · 01-17-2007, 06:52 PM

you are right. you should stick to the oats.

am an endo meso with a high metabolism

**madman911** · 01-17-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARER

interesting. I've always been of the school of thought where sugar PWO is more important on a cut due to one's generally unfed state. I mean, I can see why you'd go with oats for general fat burn, but during a cut, I never rely on my exercise for fat loss. It's all about training to mainain strength and the rest of the diet for fat loss.

More people are changing their mind on the PWO insulin spike during cutting/contest prep. In Chuck Rudolph's "Cut Diet", he says physique athletes should avoid insulin spikes completely, with the goal being to control insulin at all times, even when refeeding. According to Chuck, protein and BCAA is all you need to stave off catabolism. Plenty of people would disagree. I do agree with the idea in principle and I'll be trying the "cut diet" principles for myself in the near future.

When dieting and training to lose fat, the insulin spike is going to be pro anabolic, which always sounds good, but you have to keep in mind that anabolic is a general term that applies to both fat and muscle cell growth. When you're anabolic, you are going to build both fat and muscle, and when you're catabolic, you're going to shed both fat and muscle. There is no way around those facts. So, when you are dieting down, even if the insulin spike has some transient anabolic effect on muscle (transient because you are calorie deficient), you are also storing some fat as a result. And even though the amount of fat stored will be small, it will set you back just a little bit. Considering how little fat you actually burn during a cardio session, each and every gram of fat on your body is important. The two crucial factors in limiting catabolism while cutting are protein intake and weight training; PWO insulin spike doesn't compare in importance to those two. Another important factor is to keep testosterone levels as high as possible while cutting, especially if going to sub 10% body fat. I think a test booster is a very good idea (I wish I had used one during my contest prep) and taking in some unsaturated fat pre-workout also has been reported to boost test levels.

A PWO insulin spike when bulking is key to maximizing gains, and when cutting, it does make sense that avoiding said spike would be key to achieving the leanest possible physique. At least, if you avoid it, you probably could do less cardio, and less cardio means more muscle remaining on your frame... it does make sense.

Wow, long post... me and my big mouth. Never mind me... I'm really just thinking/typing aloud/silently.

**DJSTARER** · 01-17-2007, 09:41 PM

i just NEVER use training as a means for fat loss. I guess that is where you and I disagree. I don't mind storing a little fat knowing that my muscle will spared.

**NYCmitch25** · 01-17-2007, 11:18 PM

i experimented with this topic a while ago...anedotal

i am generally pretty skeptical with supplements. the PWO theory seemed a bit gimmickey or marketing.. so i messed around...I tried 2 scoops of protien w/oats and milk (recommended by Powerman is what you should probably do while cutting)-seemed to work well, just milk,and/or less protien *never skimp on protien* -tended to work well for cutting but I lost hard earned muslce too and had muscle soreness and lacked recovery (too drastic for me).

the regular PWO *fruit juice, milk, bananas, oreos,yogurt, etc*I went back too... I was not as sore the next day after hard training and recovered better. consumed directly after working out it didnt seem to effect overall body recomposistion... this is what i would do personally even cutting. just go with less calories but keep protien high

the PWO shake is one of the best things in BBlding LOL. I treat myself to something good...like a reward...youll never take it away from me LOL.

**skelooth** · 01-18-2007, 12:08 AM

oreos?

**NYCmitch25** · 01-18-2007, 12:29 AM

sugar is sugar

Oreo supreme - protien shake

01-16-2007, 07:58 PM	#1
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,200 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	How big should my PWO shake be? I am 225lbs, and trying to cut. I was taking 1 scoop of whey and a quarter scoop of maltodextrin. Just recently I upped it to 2 scoops of whey (46g protein) and a half scoop of malto (less than ~25g sugars) What do you guys think? I'm scared to load up on too much sugar pwo. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

01-16-2007, 08:10 PM	#3
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,200 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	I have bodyfortress whey (3g carbs per scoop) and NOW maltodextrin. I will get more ON when my bodyfortress runs out. I have a supplement dealer here in albany that blows away bb.com's prices. You'd be amazed how many big supplement players are in New York. He is friends with the guy who makes DZL gear, he sells me cases of it for mad cheap __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

01-17-2007, 03:06 AM	#4
DJohnson IMPC Contestant Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,014 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 45	Your new shake sounds great. Just have a meal within the next 2 hours afterwards. __________________ Age: 21 Height: 5'10.5" Mar, 2001: 135lbs @ ~14% Nov, 2004: 245lbs @ ~40% Feb, 2006: 188lbs @ 20.1% - Hydrostatic Tested Dec, 2006: 168lbs @ 5.5% - 7 Point Caliper Tested BULKING FOR A LONG TIME NOW Long Term Goal: Over 200lbs @ 8%

01-17-2007, 04:09 AM	#6
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,200 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	Yeah I always wait about an hour and then cook a nice sized meal. Usually, as my log indicates... steamed chicken, broccoli, and oats. I read something that Arnie wrote that says you should wait 60minutes before eating, so that your body can keep it's energy focused on healing. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

01-17-2007, 11:08 AM	#7
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,136 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 200	Skel, I would stay far away from Malto and Dextrose during a cut. I recommend eating some good ole fashioned oatmeal with your whey drink instead of using any malto for your carbs. __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

01-17-2007, 02:11 PM	#8
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,200 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	I don't have a grinder dude, and I have like 4lbs of maltodextrin sitting around I don't take much (IE, 25g is pretty much nothing but a short spike, certainly not enough to restore glycogen). I use the PWO shake to spike my insulin and hopefully shuttle the protein into my muscles. Then 60 minutes later I try to follow with a full meal that includes a good portion of starchy carbs (either ww pasta, oats, or sweet potato). The whole oatmeal vs dextrose vs maltodextrin thing has been getting argued forever. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

01-17-2007, 06:36 PM	#10
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,200 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	^but i'm the stereotypical endo where fat loss is ridiculously hard sometimes. So I see the validity of using oats as opposed to sugar. I don't know what your bodytype is? __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

01-17-2007, 06:52 PM	#11
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 4,048 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 114	you are right. you should stick to the oats. am an endo meso with a high metabolism __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: 500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

01-17-2007, 09:41 PM	#13
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 4,048 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 114	i just NEVER use training as a means for fat loss. I guess that is where you and I disagree. I don't mind storing a little fat knowing that my muscle will spared. __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: 500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

01-17-2007, 11:18 PM	#14
NYCmitch25 Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,099 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 50	i experimented with this topic a while ago...anedotal i am generally pretty skeptical with supplements. the PWO theory seemed a bit gimmickey or marketing.. so i messed around...I tried 2 scoops of protien w/oats and milk (recommended by Powerman is what you should probably do while cutting)-seemed to work well, just milk,and/or less protien *never skimp on protien* -tended to work well for cutting but I lost hard earned muslce too and had muscle soreness and lacked recovery (too drastic for me). the regular PWO fruit juice, milk, bananas, oreos,yogurt, etcI went back too... I was not as sore the next day after hard training and recovered better. consumed directly after working out it didnt seem to effect overall body recomposistion... this is what i would do personally even cutting. just go with less calories but keep protien high the PWO shake is one of the best things in BBlding LOL. I treat myself to something good...like a reward...youll never take it away from me LOL. __________________ "I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds." - Rollins

01-18-2007, 12:08 AM	#15
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,200 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	oreos? __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

01-18-2007, 12:29 AM	#16
NYCmitch25 Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,099 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 50	sugar is sugar Oreo supreme - protien shake __________________ "I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds." - Rollins