High GI carbs PWO? - Page 2

Ghosting · 08-23-2005, 01:52 AM

Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

Ghosting · 08-23-2005, 02:01 AM

I should clarify, this is only for peeps wanting to cut. This applies to nobody else.

**powerman2000** · 08-23-2005, 02:02 AM

How can you interpret that as saying oatmeal or yams would work just the same as a simple sugar. That is what you believe, right? There are only simple sugars listed. Nowhere did it say that a complex carb will restore muscle glycogen as fast as a simple sugar.

Ghosting · 08-23-2005, 02:08 AM

It may have listed only simple sugars, but it said the form injested did not affect glycogen synthesis. This interpritation stuff is like the bible.

**powerman2000** · 08-23-2005, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghosting

It may have listed only simple sugars, but it said the form injested did not affect glycogen synthesis. This interpritation stuff is like the bible.

Perhaps, but since it gave 3 examples and all 3 where simple sugars, it wouldn't make sense for the writer to omit the word, complex, if he were trying to explain that they both replinish glycogen at the same rate.

Everybody knows that complex carbs such as oatmeal digest more slowly and therefore enter the bloodsteam as glucose more slowly. Just the same way that caesin protein digests more slowly than whey protein. That is why simple sugars and whey protein are preferred for pwo nutrition. About 1 hour after I consume my pwo shake, then I will eat a cup of oatmeal. Speed is of the essence when dealing with pwo nutrition.

Ghosting · 08-23-2005, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Perhaps, but since it gave 3 examples and all 3 where simple sugars, it wouldn't make sense for the writer to omit the word, complex, if he were trying to explain that they both replinish glycogen at the same rate.

I cant disagree.

**powerman2000** · 08-23-2005, 02:30 AM

I might have to ban you for a while so I can catch up with your post count.

Ghosting · 08-23-2005, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

I might have to ban you for a while so I can catch up with your post count.

ROFL

Ghosting · 08-23-2005, 02:48 AM

OK, heres a good one, 2 hours is enough time.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...662&query_hl=2

Sports Med. 1991 Apr;11(4):232-43. Related Articles, Links

Regulation of glycogen resynthesis following exercise. Dietary considerations.

Friedman JE, Neufer PD, Dohm GL.

Department of Biochemistry, School of Medicine, East Carolina University, Greenville, North Carolina.

With the cessation of exercise, glycogen repletion begins to take place rapidly in skeletal muscle and can result in glycogen levels higher than those present before exercise. Understanding the rate-limiting steps that regulate glycogen synthesis will provide us with strategies to increase the resynthesis of glycogen during recovery from exercise, and thus improve performance. Given the importance of muscle glycogen to endurance performance, various factors which may optimise glycogen resynthesis rate and insure complete restoration have been of interest to both the scientist and athlete. The time required for complete muscle glycogen resynthesis after prolonged moderate intensity exercise is generally considered to be 24 hours provided approximately 500 to 700g of carbohydrate is ingested. Muscle glycogen synthesis rate is highest during the first 2 hours after exercise. Ingestion of 0.70g glucose/kg bodyweight every 2 hours appears to maximise glycogen resynthesis rate at approximately 5 to 6 mumol/g wet weight/h during the first 4 to 6 hours after exhaustive exercise. Further enhancement of glycogen resynthesis rate with ingestion of greater than 0.70g glucose/kg bodyweight appears to be limited by the constraints imposed by gastric emptying. Ingestion of glucose or sucrose results in similar muscle glycogen resynthesis rates while glycogen synthesis in liver is better served with the ingestion of fructose. Also, increases in muscle glycogen content during the first 4 to 6 hours after exercise are greater with ingestion of simple as compared with complex carbohydrate. Glycogen synthase activity is a key component in the regulation of glycogen resynthesis. Glycogen synthase enzyme exists in 2 states: the less active, more phosphorylated (D) form which is under allosteric control of glucose-6-phosphate, and the more active, less phosphorylated (I) form which is independent of glucose-6-phosphate. There is generally an inverse relationship between glycogen content in muscle and the percentage synthase in the activated (I) form. Exercise and insulin by themselves activate glycogen synthase by conversion to glycogen synthase I. Although small changes in the activity ratio (% I form) can lead to large changes in the rate of glycogen synthesis, glycogen synthase I appears to increase very little (approximately 25%) in response to glycogen depletion and returns to pre-exercise levels as glycogen levels return to normal. Thus glycogen resynthesis, which may increase 3- to 5-fold, may also be influenced by glucose-6-phosphate, which can activate glycogen synthase in the D form.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

**powerman2000** · 08-23-2005, 02:58 AM

Excellent article.

"Also, increases in muscle glycogen content during the first 4 to 6 hours after exercise are greater with ingestion of simple as compared with complex carbohydrate."

I guess all the peeps at bb.com haven't read this article before.

"gastric emptying"

I hate that part. :o

Ghosting · 08-23-2005, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Excellent article.

"Also, increases in muscle glycogen content during the first 4 to 6 hours after exercise are greater with ingestion of simple as compared with complex carbohydrate."

I guess all the peeps at bb.com haven't read this article before.

"gastric emptying"

I hate that part. :o

LOL. Ouch bad find for me. I guess Im converted to hi GI pwo. Thats what I get for being a sheeple.

**powerman2000** · 08-23-2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghosting

LOL. Ouch bad find for me. I guess Im converted to hi GI pwo. Thats what I get for being a sheeple.

You are truly a man, and I have a lot of respect for you!!! (Really)

Now go and tell everyone that I do know what I am talking about. (most of the time)

Ghosting · 08-23-2005, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

You are truly a man, and I have a lot of respect for you!!! (Really)

Now go and tell everyone that I do know what I am talking about. (most of the time)

Im still learning the nutrition end, so have some patience with me when I mess up.

GameDayDog · 08-23-2005, 05:17 AM

So, to sum thys all up in simple man's english...

I SHOULD consume a protein shake with dextrose immediately after my workout... Then follow it with a well rounded meal that has complex carbs within 2 hours after my shake..

Ryght?

Peace..~G

Phosphate bond · 08-23-2005, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Excellent article.

"Also, increases in muscle glycogen content during the first 4 to 6 hours after exercise are greater with ingestion of simple as compared with complex carbohydrate."

I guess all the peeps at bb.com haven't read this article before.

"gastric emptying"

I hate that part. :o

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...19&query_hl=56

Glycogen supercompensation is great for your next workout I'll admit, but I wonder what affect that will have on subsequent amino acid transport which relies on those insulin receptors?

Do you want glycogen supercompensation or possibly more amino acid uptake over the next 24 hours?

If you saw that earlier article I posted in this thread insulin resistance impairs amino acid entry also.

nuge7076 · 08-23-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GameDayDog

I used to use dextrose pre & post workout...

With recommendations from 2 people I trust & respect, I've switched to oatmeal with my pre workout shake and nothing with my post workout shake..

It's been explained to me that the simple carbs in a pre workout shake cause an insulin spike shaped lyke a mountain-top peak... where the spike from a complex carb, such as oatmeal, looks more lyke a mesa... Both use insulin to fight, reduce or lower cortisol levels during a workout...

With a post workout shake, it was explained to me that after my workout, my body is producing growth hormones but an insulin spike reduces the amount of growth hormones being produced or released in my system... I'm styll searching the net and researching to learn more about thys & will post more when I fynd it...

I will add that using dextrose pre & post workout made my shakes taste a helluva lot better..

Peace..~G

Bump that!!!

Apootheosis · 08-23-2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Perhaps, but since it gave 3 examples and all 3 where simple sugars, it wouldn't make sense for the writer to omit the word, complex, if he were trying to explain that they both replinish glycogen at the same rate.

Everybody knows that complex carbs such as oatmeal digest more slowly and therefore enter the bloodsteam as glucose more slowly. Just the same way that caesin protein digests more slowly than whey protein. That is why simple sugars and whey protein are preferred for pwo nutrition. About 1 hour after I consume my pwo shake, then I will eat a cup of oatmeal. Speed is of the essence when dealing with pwo nutrition.

Yeah, its really no big deal, its not like you only have a choice of high gi or low gi. My high-gi pwo shake is for delivering its complement of fast-absorbing whey, and from then on i switch to yogurt/milk/cottage cheese, and then to the regular low gi stuff.

**powerman2000** · 08-23-2005, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phosphate bond

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...19&query_hl=56

Glycogen supercompensation is great for your next workout I'll admit, but I wonder what affect that will have on subsequent amino acid transport which relies on those insulin receptors?

Do you want glycogen supercompensation or possibly more amino acid uptake over the next 24 hours?

If you saw that earlier article I posted in this thread insulin resistance impairs amino acid entry also.

Here is my take on that. It only makes sense that there would be an impairment since with a pwo shake full of simple carbs and whey protein your muscles would become full, which is exactly what you want after a bout with resistance weight training. I haven't seen other studies such as this one and I'd much rather see one done with humans as opposed to rats. Not sure if the rats make good test subjects. You can't make a rat do bench presses, deadlifts or squats. Do you see what I am saying?

Phosphate bond · 08-23-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Here is my take on that. It only makes sense that there would be an impairment since with a pwo shake full of simple carbs and whey protein your muscles would become full, which is exactly what you want after a bout with resistance weight training. I haven't seen other studies such as this one and I'd much rather see one done with humans as opposed to rats. Not sure if the rats make good test subjects. You can't make a rat do bench presses, deadlifts or squats. Do you see what I am saying?

One thing I've been trying to get away from is focusing on metabolic changes that occur over a span of hours and instead focusing of the effects that occur over days/weeks. (although I do admit the short term is important as well)

You are absolutely right in that someone doing deadlifts/squats/benchpresses will have maximized insulin sensitivity. In the "Big Picture" approach this means their pancreas will secrete much less insulin to control any glycmeic load from High GI it sees . That's one reason I think Squats help you make gains on your upper body because it enhances the "nutrient partioning effect" brought about by increasing insulin sensitivity (insulin receptors are

08-23-2005, 01:52 AM	#31
Ghosting IronMass Donator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,801 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 22	Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise. Costill DL. The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure. __________________ Robcardu is the Jesus of the 90s.

08-23-2005, 02:01 AM	#32
Ghosting IronMass Donator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,801 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 22	I should clarify, this is only for peeps wanting to cut. This applies to nobody else. __________________ Robcardu is the Jesus of the 90s.

08-23-2005, 02:02 AM	#33
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,247 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 203	How can you interpret that as saying oatmeal or yams would work just the same as a simple sugar. That is what you believe, right? There are only simple sugars listed. Nowhere did it say that a complex carb will restore muscle glycogen as fast as a simple sugar. __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

08-23-2005, 02:08 AM	#34
Ghosting IronMass Donator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,801 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 22	It may have listed only simple sugars, but it said the form injested did not affect glycogen synthesis. This interpritation stuff is like the bible. __________________ Robcardu is the Jesus of the 90s.

08-23-2005, 02:30 AM	#37
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,247 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 203	I might have to ban you for a while so I can catch up with your post count. __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

08-23-2005, 02:48 AM	#39
Ghosting IronMass Donator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,801 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 22	OK, heres a good one, 2 hours is enough time. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...662&query_hl=2 Sports Med. 1991 Apr;11(4):232-43. Related Articles, Links Regulation of glycogen resynthesis following exercise. Dietary considerations. Friedman JE, Neufer PD, Dohm GL. Department of Biochemistry, School of Medicine, East Carolina University, Greenville, North Carolina. With the cessation of exercise, glycogen repletion begins to take place rapidly in skeletal muscle and can result in glycogen levels higher than those present before exercise. Understanding the rate-limiting steps that regulate glycogen synthesis will provide us with strategies to increase the resynthesis of glycogen during recovery from exercise, and thus improve performance. Given the importance of muscle glycogen to endurance performance, various factors which may optimise glycogen resynthesis rate and insure complete restoration have been of interest to both the scientist and athlete. The time required for complete muscle glycogen resynthesis after prolonged moderate intensity exercise is generally considered to be 24 hours provided approximately 500 to 700g of carbohydrate is ingested. Muscle glycogen synthesis rate is highest during the first 2 hours after exercise. Ingestion of 0.70g glucose/kg bodyweight every 2 hours appears to maximise glycogen resynthesis rate at approximately 5 to 6 mumol/g wet weight/h during the first 4 to 6 hours after exhaustive exercise. Further enhancement of glycogen resynthesis rate with ingestion of greater than 0.70g glucose/kg bodyweight appears to be limited by the constraints imposed by gastric emptying. Ingestion of glucose or sucrose results in similar muscle glycogen resynthesis rates while glycogen synthesis in liver is better served with the ingestion of fructose. Also, increases in muscle glycogen content during the first 4 to 6 hours after exercise are greater with ingestion of simple as compared with complex carbohydrate. Glycogen synthase activity is a key component in the regulation of glycogen resynthesis. Glycogen synthase enzyme exists in 2 states: the less active, more phosphorylated (D) form which is under allosteric control of glucose-6-phosphate, and the more active, less phosphorylated (I) form which is independent of glucose-6-phosphate. There is generally an inverse relationship between glycogen content in muscle and the percentage synthase in the activated (I) form. Exercise and insulin by themselves activate glycogen synthase by conversion to glycogen synthase I. Although small changes in the activity ratio (% I form) can lead to large changes in the rate of glycogen synthesis, glycogen synthase I appears to increase very little (approximately 25%) in response to glycogen depletion and returns to pre-exercise levels as glycogen levels return to normal. Thus glycogen resynthesis, which may increase 3- to 5-fold, may also be influenced by glucose-6-phosphate, which can activate glycogen synthase in the D form.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS) __________________ Robcardu is the Jesus of the 90s.

08-23-2005, 02:58 AM	#40
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,247 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 203	Good find. Excellent article. "Also, increases in muscle glycogen content during the first 4 to 6 hours after exercise are greater with ingestion of simple as compared with complex carbohydrate." I guess all the peeps at bb.com haven't read this article before. "gastric emptying" I hate that part. :o __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

08-23-2005, 05:17 AM	#44
GameDayDog The Dawg Is Back!! Join Date: May 2005 Location: Doin Compound Movements 4 Scooby Snacks! Posts: 1,914 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 32	To Sum It All Up... So, to sum thys all up in simple man's english... I SHOULD consume a protein shake with dextrose immediately after my workout... Then follow it with a well rounded meal that has complex carbs within 2 hours after my shake.. Ryght? Peace..~G __________________ I am Thee Alpha.. RaSP is Thee oMEGA.. Between the 2 of us - We have everythyng covered... I want to be bigger than all the humans!! "I'm sure I should be doing cardio too....but I don't run from anything...so why practice?" - 1stInDoor Goal - 200#'s 5/27/07 - 4/27/07 - 175# 3/27/07 - 167#