Heresy, cut the meals, yet spare the muscle?

**A.FreeRadical** · 11-16-2005, 07:36 PM

Try to keep an open mind about what you are going to read. This stuff is heresy.

I have tried every type of diet imaginable. I can lose some weight on most of them. I have never been able to get below 12% bodyfat.

Of all of the things I have tried, simply not eating when I am not hungry seems to work the best at losing weight. I have not tried this way of eating since I began bodybuilding seriously. (Almost a year ago.)

Yes, I know about "breaking the fast", cortisol, spacing out meals to moderate blood sugar and all that. (Bear with me here guys, I know some of you are twitching at the thought.

)

Ok, I hate to eat in the morning. I love to eat at night. When I eat this way I can easily cut 500 -1000 calories per day with no effort or pain. I can lose "weight" this way. When I do the 'meals every 3 hours', I am thinking about food all day. Thinking that I don't want to eat in the morning and thinking that I need to eat more at night.

When I did this before, I didn't have any muscle to speak of. How do I do this and still spare the hard earned muscle?

If it can't be done with "no food" during the a.m., what, at a minimum, do I need to spare my muscles? Glutamine? Some protein? Some carbs?

I know I feel better when I eat the things my body craves when it craves them (I am talking clean foods here. Milk, eggs, fruit, meats, yogurt, oatmeal, brown rice, various teas, etc.) I think my body is trying to tell me something and I would like to see what happens when I do what it wants me to do. Any ideas?

Please, no lectures. I know the bodybuilding gospel on nutrition.

*

Lift · 11-16-2005, 08:29 PM

i think you will have to consume calories in the morning...and not doing so will just burden fat loss and increase muscle loss. why not just drink a shake, not necessarily an mrp something similiar to your pwo shake (if u have one)

if i havent got time for breakfast in the morning (yea yeah i shud make time i know) i drink a serving of vitargo (72g) and 2 scoops of protein powder (46g) which is 472 calories.

just a thought

**EME** · 11-16-2005, 08:53 PM

Well, I definitely won't give you the lecture..... since you've heard it all anyway, and it's probably what you would tell someone else if they asked the same question to you...

But.. I will say this.

I know you have aspirations of competing in the future, and you won't be able to get down to proper competition shape simply by cutting out meals.

You may be able to lose the weight, but you won't be happy with how you look when you get there.

If you truly decide you want to compete, and give it your best shot to come in looking your best.. you'll probably have to make yourself eat, even at times when you don't feel like it.

I'm in a mass building phase, and I have to do that now.... eat when I'm not hungry that is.

I have no doubt that you can lose weight by cutting out meals, but you probably won't be really happy with the results on your physique by taking that approach.

- EME

**A.FreeRadical** · 11-16-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EME

Well, I definitely won't give you the lecture..... since you've heard it all anyway, and it's probably what you would tell someone else if they asked the same question to you...

You are correct. I have advised others and this goes against the advice that I give. I am not suggesting that this would be good for contest prep.

In asking the question, I know I can't get away with not eating anything for 12 hours and not have some adverse effects. I regularly do not eat anything for 8 hours (during sleep) though. Maybe a better way to put this question would be: What food (or supplements) and how much of it do I need to carry me through the morning without any serious adverse effects?

Another question that I have been wondering about is, what does it mean to lose muscle? I mean if I lose muscle to lose fat, what does it take to gain it back? Does it take the same amount of nutrition/energy/time/exercise to rebuild a "lost" muscle as it does to build one that didn't exist before?

This is all hypothetical. Just things I have been thinking about. If I try this it will be for the next couple of weeks and won't really impact my plans to compete in May. I am planning on bulking in December in January, then I will start a real bodybuilding cutting diet conducive to competition.

Thanks for your imput.

*

Andrew69 · 11-20-2005, 02:05 AM

AFR,
Maybe take a look into supplementation with BCAA's. Leucine regulates protein synthesis (via mTOR) and "tricks" the body in believing that there is an abundance of aminos (that is, plenty of food) so AA oxidation is also reduced.

So you get to have your cake and it eat to (but this is all at high levels of BCAA supplementation 30-40g per day +).

I havent had a chance (or need really

) to try it myself, but I know many swear by it.

**A.FreeRadical** · 11-20-2005, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew69

AFR,
Maybe take a look into supplementation with BCAA's. Leucine regulates protein synthesis (via mTOR) and "tricks" the body in believing that there is an abundance of aminos (that is, plenty of food) so AA oxidation is also reduced.

So you get to have your cake and it eat to (but this is all at high levels of BCAA supplementation 30-40g per day +).

I havent had a chance (or need really

) to try it myself, but I know many swear by it.

Hey Andrew, good to see you. That is very interesting. Can you point me to any threads or original articles links. I definitely am interested in something like this. Example, I forced myself to eat an omelet this morning, that set off a hunger signal about 10 am, then again at 12 pm. So I ate, now here it is, when I am naturally hungry and I am out of calories for the day. Hey thanks, I will look around and see if I can find anything on it.

Did you enjoy your trip? How about a synopsis?

*

**A.FreeRadical** · 11-20-2005, 11:14 AM

I just checked my whey protein. It has 240 calories, 4 grams of glutamine and 5 grams of BCAAs (Isoleucine=1.7 grams, Leucine= 1.6grams and Valine=1.4 grams) in each scoop. Perhaps a protein shake with 2 scoops when I awake would stop any catabolism for a couple of hours. Then maybe an additional supplement of BCAAs at at mid-morning. I take a 2 scoop shake with my workout. Then I would begin eating food at noon.

Glutamine and BCAAs from 4 scoops of On Whey Protein per day:
glutamine= 16 grams
Isoleucine = 6.8 grams per day
Leucine = 6.6 grams
Valine= 5.6 grams

BCAAs from 4 scoops of ON BCAA powder
Isoleucine = 5 grams per day
Leucine = 10 grams
Valine= 5 grams

Totals from supps:

Isoleucine = 11.8 grams per day
Leucine = 16.6 grams
Valine= 11.6 grams

When you say "30 to 40 grams per day" is that total BCAAs or for each of the 3 BCAAs?

I think we might be on to something.

*

Andrew69 · 11-21-2005, 08:46 AM

The trip was great, thanks for asking

30-40 grams per day is total of the three, but they would need to be taken on the own as other AA's may complete for absorption I believe. The BCCA that you get from your shakes doesnt really count

Also you need to look for a 2:1:1 ratio of Leucine:Isoleucine:Valine (so your ON BCAA powder is great except that is probably tastes like crap)

I do have a few studies saved on BCAA's. I dig through them and post the ones that are relevant.

**A.FreeRadical** · 11-21-2005, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew69

The trip was great, thanks for asking

30-40 grams per day is total of the three, but they would need to be taken on the own as other AA's may complete for absorption I believe. The BCCA that you get from your shakes doesnt really count

Also you need to look for a 2:1:1 ratio of Leucine:Isoleucine:Valine (so your ON BCAA powder is great except that is probably tastes like crap)

I do have a few studies saved on BCAA's. I dig through them and post the ones that are relevant.

Ok, thanks and I look forward to anything that you may find.

*

Andrew69 · 11-22-2005, 04:05 AM

OK, probably the most relevant was this one conducted on elite wrestlers.

Combined effects of caloric restriction and branched-chain amino acid supplementation on body composition and exercise performance in elite wrestlers.

Mourier A, Bigard AX, de Kerviler E, Roger B, Legrand H, Guezennec CY.

Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches de Medecine Aerospatiale, Departement de Physiologie Systemique, Bretigny-sur-orge, France.

Twenty-five competitive wrestlers restricted their caloric intake (28 kcal.kg-1.day-1) for 19 days, using a hypocaloric control (hC, n = 6), hypocaloric high-protein (hHP, n = 7), hypocaloric high-branched-chain amino acid (hBCAA, n = 6), hypocaloric low-protein (hLP, n = 6) diet to determine the effects of caloric restriction on body composition and performances versus control diet (C, n = 6). Anthropometric parameters (weight, percent body fat) and adipose tissue (AT) distribution measured by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) obtained before and after diet, were compared. A significant highest body weight loss (-4 kg, p < 0.05) and decrease in the percent of body fat (-17.3%, p < 0.05) were observed for subjects of the hBCAA group. Subjects of the hBCAA group exhibited a significant reduction (-34.4%, p < 0.05) in abdominal visceral adipose tissue (VAT). There was no change in aerobic (VO2max) (p > 0.75) and anaerobic capacities (Wingate test) (p > 0.81), and in muscular strength (p > 0.82). We conclude that under our experimental conditions, the combination of moderate energy restriction and BCAA supplementation induced significant and preferential losses of VAT, and allowed maintainance of a high level of performance.

MRI was used to ensure accuracy (no mistakes from calipers here!)
So in essence, BCAA's allowed the wrestlers to drop bf while maintaining muscle mass and strength.
Doesnt get much better than that

**A.FreeRadical** · 11-22-2005, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew69

MRI was used to ensure accuracy (no mistakes from calipers here!) So in essence, BCAA's allowed the wrestlers to drop bf while maintaining muscle mass and strength.

Doesnt get much better than that

This confused me:

We conclude that under our experimental conditions, the combination of moderate energy restriction and BCAA supplementation induced significant and preferential losses of VAT, and allowed maintainance of a high level of performance.

Where does the "moderate energy restriction" come into this, or did they mean "moderate caloric restriction"?

I noticed on my last bulk that most of my fat gain was VAT. My waist increased by an inch, but when I pinch my belly fat it is the same as before the bulk.

I am game for this experiment. So, I take 2:1:1 ratio of Leucine:Isoleucine:Valine, respectively, totalling 30-40 grams each day, right?

Cool stuff. Working smarter is so much easier.

*

**skelooth** · 11-22-2005, 04:57 AM

if you really don't want to eat, you could have a chunk of cheddar or something...

Basically what you're asking is "What can I eat so that I don't have to eat", the answer is in the question. If you're really not hungry, than eat something small.... with fat and casein preferably. But relying on a supplement to prevent muscle loss doesn't sound like a very good approach. If you wanted to do the supplement approach you could try a table spoon of coconut oil in a scoop of whey.

Andrew69 · 11-22-2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.FreeRadical

This confused me:

We conclude that under our experimental conditions, the combination of moderate energy restriction and BCAA supplementation induced significant and preferential losses of VAT, and allowed maintainance of a high level of performance.

Where does the "moderate energy restriction" come into this, or did they mean "moderate caloric restriction"?

Same thing. A calorie is just a measure of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.FreeRadical

I noticed on my last bulk that most of my fat gain was VAT. My waist increased by an inch, but when I pinch my belly fat it is the same as before the bulk.

I am game for this experiment. So, I take 2:1:1 ratio of Leucine:Isoleucine:Valine, respectively, totalling 30-40 grams each day, right?

Cool stuff. Working smarter is so much easier.

*

Yep.
The will need to watch a couple of things.
1. Generally, BCAA's taste like ass (or so I am told

), so you may want to go with a flavoured version or add something like crystal lite (which we cant get in Australia of course. Damn I wish I brought back a suitcase of the stuff now

)
2. You will need to take the BCAA's between meals, with as little food in there as possible so other AA's do not compete for absorption.
3. Watch you intake of other supps that act as PPAR antagonists (fish oil and sesamin) as they increase the rate of BCAA oxidation (as does intense exercise of course)
4. From point 3 ,the only time you could take your BCAA's with other aminos would be around you work outs. Preferably Id take them either pre WO or during, (to give them time to be absorbed) and then go with your usual PWO shake.

Someone give Phospate Bond a nudge and get him to have at look at this thread. He know a lot more than me about all this. :bigthumbu

11-16-2005, 07:36 PM	#1
A.FreeRadical the Epicurean Bodybuilder Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,245 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 58	Heresy, cut the meals, yet spare the muscle? Try to keep an open mind about what you are going to read. This stuff is heresy. I have tried every type of diet imaginable. I can lose some weight on most of them. I have never been able to get below 12% bodyfat. Of all of the things I have tried, simply not eating when I am not hungry seems to work the best at losing weight. I have not tried this way of eating since I began bodybuilding seriously. (Almost a year ago.) Yes, I know about "breaking the fast", cortisol, spacing out meals to moderate blood sugar and all that. (Bear with me here guys, I know some of you are twitching at the thought. ) Ok, I hate to eat in the morning. I love to eat at night. When I eat this way I can easily cut 500 -1000 calories per day with no effort or pain. I can lose "weight" this way. When I do the 'meals every 3 hours', I am thinking about food all day. Thinking that I don't want to eat in the morning and thinking that I need to eat more at night. When I did this before, I didn't have any muscle to speak of. How do I do this and still spare the hard earned muscle? If it can't be done with "no food" during the a.m., what, at a minimum, do I need to spare my muscles? Glutamine? Some protein? Some carbs? I know I feel better when I eat the things my body craves when it craves them (I am talking clean foods here. Milk, eggs, fruit, meats, yogurt, oatmeal, brown rice, various teas, etc.) I think my body is trying to tell me something and I would like to see what happens when I do what it wants me to do. Any ideas? Please, no lectures. I know the bodybuilding gospel on nutrition. * __________________ "Is it going to be the red pill or the blue pill, Neo? The red pill will answer the question 'What is the Matrix?' Choose carefully. Remember, all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more." Ron Paul for President, 2008 A.FreeRadical ...the Epicurean bodybuilder Height: 5'9", Age: 62, My last high on 2/1/2006 was 196 lbs. My last low on 8/08/2006 was 167.5 lbs. Cutting until I am lean Starting weight: 190 lbs. bodyfat: 19.7% November 27th: 183 lbs. bodyfat: 18.3% bodyfat Goal Weight: 176 lbs with no more than 10% bodyfat My recipe collection

11-16-2005, 08:53 PM	#3
EME Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,265 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 51	Well, I definitely won't give you the lecture..... since you've heard it all anyway, and it's probably what you would tell someone else if they asked the same question to you... But.. I will say this. I know you have aspirations of competing in the future, and you won't be able to get down to proper competition shape simply by cutting out meals. You may be able to lose the weight, but you won't be happy with how you look when you get there. If you truly decide you want to compete, and give it your best shot to come in looking your best.. you'll probably have to make yourself eat, even at times when you don't feel like it. I'm in a mass building phase, and I have to do that now.... eat when I'm not hungry that is. I have no doubt that you can lose weight by cutting out meals, but you probably won't be really happy with the results on your physique by taking that approach. - EME __________________ PhysiqueFXonline - Online Nutrition and Training with Michael and Kendra Elias: www.MichaelandKendra.com Team Molecular Nutrition Creative Director FAME Media Group / World Natural Sports Organization Editor-In-Chief FAME Magazine www.FAMEWorldTour.com

11-20-2005, 02:05 AM	#5
Andrew69 Amateur Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, where are you? Posts: 52 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 4	AFR, Maybe take a look into supplementation with BCAA's. Leucine regulates protein synthesis (via mTOR) and "tricks" the body in believing that there is an abundance of aminos (that is, plenty of food) so AA oxidation is also reduced. So you get to have your cake and it eat to (but this is all at high levels of BCAA supplementation 30-40g per day +). I havent had a chance (or need really ) to try it myself, but I know many swear by it. __________________

11-20-2005, 11:14 AM	#7
A.FreeRadical the Epicurean Bodybuilder Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,245 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 58	I just checked my whey protein. It has 240 calories, 4 grams of glutamine and 5 grams of BCAAs (Isoleucine=1.7 grams, Leucine= 1.6grams and Valine=1.4 grams) in each scoop. Perhaps a protein shake with 2 scoops when I awake would stop any catabolism for a couple of hours. Then maybe an additional supplement of BCAAs at at mid-morning. I take a 2 scoop shake with my workout. Then I would begin eating food at noon. Glutamine and BCAAs from 4 scoops of On Whey Protein per day: glutamine= 16 grams Isoleucine = 6.8 grams per day Leucine = 6.6 grams Valine= 5.6 grams BCAAs from 4 scoops of ON BCAA powder Isoleucine = 5 grams per day Leucine = 10 grams Valine= 5 grams Totals from supps: Isoleucine = 11.8 grams per day Leucine = 16.6 grams Valine= 11.6 grams When you say "30 to 40 grams per day" is that total BCAAs or for each of the 3 BCAAs? I think we might be on to something. * __________________ "Is it going to be the red pill or the blue pill, Neo? The red pill will answer the question 'What is the Matrix?' Choose carefully. Remember, all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more." Ron Paul for President, 2008 A.FreeRadical ...the Epicurean bodybuilder Height: 5'9", Age: 62, My last high on 2/1/2006 was 196 lbs. My last low on 8/08/2006 was 167.5 lbs. Cutting until I am lean Starting weight: 190 lbs. bodyfat: 19.7% November 27th: 183 lbs. bodyfat: 18.3% bodyfat Goal Weight: 176 lbs with no more than 10% bodyfat My recipe collection

11-21-2005, 08:46 AM	#8
Andrew69 Amateur Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, where are you? Posts: 52 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 4	The trip was great, thanks for asking 30-40 grams per day is total of the three, but they would need to be taken on the own as other AA's may complete for absorption I believe. The BCCA that you get from your shakes doesnt really count Also you need to look for a 2:1:1 ratio of Leucine:Isoleucine:Valine (so your ON BCAA powder is great except that is probably tastes like crap) I do have a few studies saved on BCAA's. I dig through them and post the ones that are relevant. __________________

11-16-2005, 08:29 PM	#2
Lift I Love IronMass.Com Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 825 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	i think you will have to consume calories in the morning...and not doing so will just burden fat loss and increase muscle loss. why not just drink a shake, not necessarily an mrp something similiar to your pwo shake (if u have one) if i havent got time for breakfast in the morning (yea yeah i shud make time i know) i drink a serving of vitargo (72g) and 2 scoops of protein powder (46g) which is 472 calories. just a thought

11-22-2005, 04:05 AM	#10
Andrew69 Amateur Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, where are you? Posts: 52 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 4	OK, probably the most relevant was this one conducted on elite wrestlers. Combined effects of caloric restriction and branched-chain amino acid supplementation on body composition and exercise performance in elite wrestlers. Mourier A, Bigard AX, de Kerviler E, Roger B, Legrand H, Guezennec CY. Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches de Medecine Aerospatiale, Departement de Physiologie Systemique, Bretigny-sur-orge, France. Twenty-five competitive wrestlers restricted their caloric intake (28 kcal.kg-1.day-1) for 19 days, using a hypocaloric control (hC, n = 6), hypocaloric high-protein (hHP, n = 7), hypocaloric high-branched-chain amino acid (hBCAA, n = 6), hypocaloric low-protein (hLP, n = 6) diet to determine the effects of caloric restriction on body composition and performances versus control diet (C, n = 6). Anthropometric parameters (weight, percent body fat) and adipose tissue (AT) distribution measured by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) obtained before and after diet, were compared. A significant highest body weight loss (-4 kg, p < 0.05) and decrease in the percent of body fat (-17.3%, p < 0.05) were observed for subjects of the hBCAA group. Subjects of the hBCAA group exhibited a significant reduction (-34.4%, p < 0.05) in abdominal visceral adipose tissue (VAT). There was no change in aerobic (VO2max) (p > 0.75) and anaerobic capacities (Wingate test) (p > 0.81), and in muscular strength (p > 0.82). We conclude that under our experimental conditions, the combination of moderate energy restriction and BCAA supplementation induced significant and preferential losses of VAT, and allowed maintainance of a high level of performance. MRI was used to ensure accuracy (no mistakes from calipers here!) So in essence, BCAA's allowed the wrestlers to drop bf while maintaining muscle mass and strength. Doesnt get much better than that __________________

11-22-2005, 04:57 AM	#12
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	if you really don't want to eat, you could have a chunk of cheddar or something... Basically what you're asking is "What can I eat so that I don't have to eat", the answer is in the question. If you're really not hungry, than eat something small.... with fat and casein preferably. But relying on a supplement to prevent muscle loss doesn't sound like a very good approach. If you wanted to do the supplement approach you could try a table spoon of coconut oil in a scoop of whey. __________________ http://loseover100lbs.com/misc-f7.html

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