Cutting/Bulking - The Only Way To Go?

Pumpatron · 05-18-2005, 09:54 PM

It seems to me that the only way to gain muscle is to bulk (due to the extra calories) and the only way to lose fat is to cut (due to eating less calories).

I'm pretty sure not every single person with big muscles and a six pac bulks and cuts so how is it they are able to have such low bodyfat whilst still being able to grow muscle?

I've been wondering this for so long now and have been researching everything for a couple months but the only solution I can come up with is that you need to bulk and cut. It seems inevitable that you will not have a six pac whilst building muscle at the same time.

Master Of Puppets · 05-18-2005, 09:58 PM

Posted by Dante (Doggcrapp) of bb.com

If i never hear these words again in my life it will be too soon. I cringe everytime i hear someone (straight from bb.com) say "im coming off a bulker and now im doing a cutter"..What the hell is that?..that is the most idiotic concept ever! So what your doing is taking 2 steps forward for 4 months and then 1.5 steps backward for 4 months and repeating over and over? Talk about a waste of valuable time! Half your freaking year is gone to hell because your cutting for half of it and gaining no muscle. How bout a novel concept for you? How bout getting dramatically larger over time with huge food (protein) intake and super heavy training but adhering to carb cuttoffs and doing cardio (for increasing hunger and keeping bodyfat at bay reasons) so that you stay lean!!!!!!!!!! Gee whiz, might that be a better way?!

Bulker: An Excuse to become a fat **** for the sake of beleiving your putting on muscle mass to others and yourself (and you probably are but at a 50/50 ratio of muscle to fat--wow thats awesome!)

Cutter: 3-5 months of wasted muscle building time (trust me youll be building very little muscle mass during this) in the quest of turning yourself back from a fat slob you turned yourself into to someone presentable.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!! Your 200lbs, eat like a 250lb guy to get freakshow bigger, and train like a rhino with heavy weights to get larger but also do everything in your power (green tea, cardio, carb cuttoffs) to keep at a bodyfat percentage that your proud of or can live with. This is all about turning your body into a muscle building fat burning blast furnace!
If you do bulking and cutting for the next 2 years and with all those "cutting cycles" adding up to a years time, guess what you just gave up a year of lifting--one year of nonexistant muscle mass accumalation. Thats like lifting for the next 6 years and you only get 3 years of productivity out of it. See the problem is, alot of people try to stay lean year round while also tryng their hardest to put on muscle mass and they do it all wrong. They eat like a 190lber trying to get to 250lbs and think that--by some miracle that will get them there. This is all about becomeing a food processing machine here. Take in a surplus (protein/food), create a demand to put on muscle (seriously heavy lifting/DC training) and then taking care of excesses and burning them off (carb cuttoffs/cardio/thermogenisis)----eating and training like a 300lbs offseason behemoth but doing everything else in your power to be that guy walking around at 7-14% bodyfat (whatever floats your boat)....See its not that hard, just think it out....but most of all dont waste your freaking time taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps backward....this is about constant forward progress. If I hear anyone say "cutter" or "bulker" again on this board, you get the official title of "bodybuilding.com guy", like a scarlet letter. This is constant bulking and cutting at the same time and you dont forsake one for the other unless your competing for a show.
You turn yourself into a machine and you keep that machine evolving. Does anyone in this forum actually beleive that if you are 200lbs and doing cardio 3-4x a week at 30-45 minutes a pop but eating 400-500 grams of protein and a shitload of food to get bigger that - YOUR ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO GET BIGGER BECAUSE OF THAT CARDIO? If your not getting bigger then your either not eating enough or your a young guy whose metabolism is so fast that your one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to do cardio. Thats another story I have to write about one of these days--Cardio. Every time I hear a guy tell me...."I just cant eat enough"....I ask him "are you doing cardio?", and he gives me that puzzled look and thinks "why should I do cardio? I have trouble gaining weight and eating enough".....BINGO!!!!! What do you think cardio does? You get up in the morning and start your day with some cardio I guarentee youll be starving the rest of the day and be eating like a damn horse. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME. Cardio is a two way street--increases hunger and keeps you lean. You have trouble getting bigger? Add cardio first thing in the morning after 30 grams of protein in water and some bcaa's and watch yourself eat the rest of the day! You wont be missing meals, youll be starving. Which leads me to getting off this computer because im starving.I wrote this very fast because im late--so sorry bout that

Pumpatron · 05-18-2005, 10:03 PM

I posted the same question on BB.com and somebody gave me the same reply... I've read through that so many times but as much as I'd like to, I can't seem to find the truth in it. He suggests that you are able to stay lean whilst building muscle but how is this possible as to lose fat you need a calorie deficit which basically goes against the whole muscle building process.

I'm just so confused at the moment.

**johnsbod** · 05-18-2005, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpatron

I posted the same question on BB.com and somebody gave me the same reply... I've read through that so many times but as much as I'd like to, I can't seem to find the truth in it. He suggests that you are able to stay lean whilst building muscle but how is this possible as to lose fat you need a calorie deficit which basically goes against the whole muscle building process.

I'm just so confused at the moment.

Think about it this way. If you are adding muscle and very little fat you can actually lower your overall BF% during the process.

Master Of Puppets · 05-18-2005, 10:06 PM

I think the thing is that to lose weight you need a caloric deficit, not to lose fat. If you stay in a caloric surplus, but do some cardio as well, shouldn't bodyfat levels go down? I think that's the writer's point.

-MOP

**johnsbod** · 05-18-2005, 10:08 PM

BTW, I moved this to the nutrition forum. I think this is a better place for this discussion.

**Sholiz** · 05-18-2005, 11:38 PM

You CAN lose FAT while putting on muscle.

I was doing it for about 6 weeks before I switched my routine around to accomodate me a little better. It's a SLOW process, you need to do cardio, heavy weight training, high protein, low carbs (centered around early morning and workouts), moderate fats (not combined in a carb meal).

It's really quite difficult to get all this down, but once you understand your own bodytype and what makes YOU work ... this all becomes 2nd nature. You want to keep 'bulking' but want to drop the BF to a respectable level over say, 6-8 months ... then have lesser time to get ready for a contest, so be it. It'd be easier work come contest time (or even summer).

Pumpatron · 05-19-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juanca

hey pump, glad to see you hear on ironmass bro

JC

Yeh, I even took your advice and signed up to intensemuscle.com

I can see after reading through the different sections on this forum and intensemuscle that it is a lot better than bb.com forum... Less trolls, less bullshit, more truth!

**MurphMan** · 05-20-2005, 12:11 AM

Lose bf and gaining LBM.....sounds contradictory but it really isn't. In order to do both at the same time you must follow a very disciplined eating protocol. It consists of varying the ammount of calories you consume in order to positively effect change in your BMR.

4-5 days/week (on your training days) add 2 calories per pound of LBM to your normal caloric intake (maintenance calories). Spread these calories among 5-6 meals per day. Then on the remaining days (off days or cardio days) reduce your caloric intake by 2 calories per pound of LBM.

Once you start to gain LBM it is important to adjust your maintenance calories base line upward to reflect the new caloric needs of your increased muscle mass.

**EME** · 05-21-2005, 10:19 PM

One reality that everyone has to keep in mind is that few people will actually be able to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, for an extended period of time.

There are some individuals that are gifted genetically that can gain mass and lose fat at once, however, there are a lot of people that simply will not be able to add lean mass and lose fat simultaneously, no matter how dialed in their diet and training are.

Individuals that are relatively new to training may find that when they first begin a cutting program involving weight training, that they do seem to be gaining muscle and losing fat.

Their body's response to the weight training is taking precedence over their state of caloric defecit, and the body is directing hormones to increase protein synthesis in spite of the caloric deficit, to be able to handle the new load placed on the muscles.

Individuals who use anabolic agents are often able to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneosly, because the artificially elevated hormone levels cause significant increases in the amount of protein the body can and will synthesize. Therefore, if a person is taking in a high protein diet, moderate carb and low fat diet..the body will direct nearly every gram of protein consumed to be synthesized into muscle, and force the additional necessary energy to come from stored fat.. even in a state of caloric defecit.

Some individuals are genetically predisposed to synthesize more protein, and burn more fat naturally than others. It has a lot to do with a person's natural hormone levels, predisposition for fat storage, and propensity for gaining muscle.

Not everyone will have the same results, no matter how well designed their training program is.

For many, the only way to gain muscle is to eat a caloric surplus and accept that you might gain some fat, or at the very least keep the fat you have.

However, this doesn't mean that the only way for some to gain muscle is to blow up and get as big as a house. You can maintain just enough caloric surplus to keep anabolic, but not enough to baloon and get rediculously fat.

Although it would be great if we could all naturally gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, it simply isn't going to happen for many of us.

Therefore, for a lot, the solution is going to be controlled cycles of focusing on gaining lean mass, and then controlled cycles of stripping of a little more fat while keeping the extra mass you have gained....each step of the way progressing toward your eventual goal.

- EME

**johnsbod** · 05-21-2005, 10:57 PM

EME, what is your take on the megadose BCAA thing? It seems that quite a few people were able to put on lean mass while cutting, although some of them may fall into the "exceptional genetics" category. Do you think this helps while cutting?

**EME** · 05-21-2005, 11:05 PM

BCAA intake will certainly help when cutting to maintain mass, just as ensuring you have adequate protein intake will.

Whether the aminos come from supplementation, or from regular food, they are definitely essential. I don't think you necessarily have to mega dose if your regular protein intake is high enough, but it shouldn't hurt.

As far as whether individuals were truly able to gain lean mass and lose fat using this type of supplementation plan? I'd like to see the actual data.

I think many individuals following this method were probably maintaining more muscle while dieting due to adequate amino intake, and thus appeared more muscular as they lost fat.

I have no doubt that some people did manage lose fat and gain muscle....but I bet there were more factors, like genetic predispostion, involved than just mega BCAA dosing.

- EME

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsbod

EME, what is your take on the megadose BCAA thing? It seems that quite a few people were able to put on lean mass while cutting, although some of them may fall into the "exceptional genetics" category. Do you think this helps while cutting?

**johnsbod** · 05-21-2005, 11:58 PM

Thanks for the feedback EME. I'm going to try the megadosing in a couple weeks while I finish my cutting for summer. My metabolism had slowed down too much for me to be happy with, so for the past month I've been eating slightly above maintenance and busting my butt in the gym. I don't have a ton more weight to lose for summer, but I'm hoping that the BCAAs will at least help me maintain my muscle mass. This is in addition to a very clean diet of course.

05-18-2005, 09:54 PM	#1
Pumpatron Pro Stature Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 161 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 5	Cutting/Bulking - The Only Way To Go? It seems to me that the only way to gain muscle is to bulk (due to the extra calories) and the only way to lose fat is to cut (due to eating less calories). I'm pretty sure not every single person with big muscles and a six pac bulks and cuts so how is it they are able to have such low bodyfat whilst still being able to grow muscle? I've been wondering this for so long now and have been researching everything for a couple months but the only solution I can come up with is that you need to bulk and cut. It seems inevitable that you will not have a six pac whilst building muscle at the same time.

05-18-2005, 09:58 PM	#2
Master Of Puppets Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,014 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 47	Try this on for size: Posted by Dante (Doggcrapp) of bb.com If i never hear these words again in my life it will be too soon. I cringe everytime i hear someone (straight from bb.com) say "im coming off a bulker and now im doing a cutter"..What the hell is that?..that is the most idiotic concept ever! So what your doing is taking 2 steps forward for 4 months and then 1.5 steps backward for 4 months and repeating over and over? Talk about a waste of valuable time! Half your freaking year is gone to hell because your cutting for half of it and gaining no muscle. How bout a novel concept for you? How bout getting dramatically larger over time with huge food (protein) intake and super heavy training but adhering to carb cuttoffs and doing cardio (for increasing hunger and keeping bodyfat at bay reasons) so that you stay lean!!!!!!!!!! Gee whiz, might that be a better way?! Bulker: An Excuse to become a fat **** for the sake of beleiving your putting on muscle mass to others and yourself (and you probably are but at a 50/50 ratio of muscle to fat--wow thats awesome!) Cutter: 3-5 months of wasted muscle building time (trust me youll be building very little muscle mass during this) in the quest of turning yourself back from a fat slob you turned yourself into to someone presentable. THINK ABOUT IT!!!! Your 200lbs, eat like a 250lb guy to get freakshow bigger, and train like a rhino with heavy weights to get larger but also do everything in your power (green tea, cardio, carb cuttoffs) to keep at a bodyfat percentage that your proud of or can live with. This is all about turning your body into a muscle building fat burning blast furnace! If you do bulking and cutting for the next 2 years and with all those "cutting cycles" adding up to a years time, guess what you just gave up a year of lifting--one year of nonexistant muscle mass accumalation. Thats like lifting for the next 6 years and you only get 3 years of productivity out of it. See the problem is, alot of people try to stay lean year round while also tryng their hardest to put on muscle mass and they do it all wrong. They eat like a 190lber trying to get to 250lbs and think that--by some miracle that will get them there. This is all about becomeing a food processing machine here. Take in a surplus (protein/food), create a demand to put on muscle (seriously heavy lifting/DC training) and then taking care of excesses and burning them off (carb cuttoffs/cardio/thermogenisis)----eating and training like a 300lbs offseason behemoth but doing everything else in your power to be that guy walking around at 7-14% bodyfat (whatever floats your boat)....See its not that hard, just think it out....but most of all dont waste your freaking time taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps backward....this is about constant forward progress. If I hear anyone say "cutter" or "bulker" again on this board, you get the official title of "bodybuilding.com guy", like a scarlet letter. This is constant bulking and cutting at the same time and you dont forsake one for the other unless your competing for a show. You turn yourself into a machine and you keep that machine evolving. Does anyone in this forum actually beleive that if you are 200lbs and doing cardio 3-4x a week at 30-45 minutes a pop but eating 400-500 grams of protein and a shitload of food to get bigger that - YOUR ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO GET BIGGER BECAUSE OF THAT CARDIO? If your not getting bigger then your either not eating enough or your a young guy whose metabolism is so fast that your one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to do cardio. Thats another story I have to write about one of these days--Cardio. Every time I hear a guy tell me...."I just cant eat enough"....I ask him "are you doing cardio?", and he gives me that puzzled look and thinks "why should I do cardio? I have trouble gaining weight and eating enough".....BINGO!!!!! What do you think cardio does? You get up in the morning and start your day with some cardio I guarentee youll be starving the rest of the day and be eating like a damn horse. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME. Cardio is a two way street--increases hunger and keeps you lean. You have trouble getting bigger? Add cardio first thing in the morning after 30 grams of protein in water and some bcaa's and watch yourself eat the rest of the day! You wont be missing meals, youll be starving. Which leads me to getting off this computer because im starving.I wrote this very fast because im late--so sorry bout that __________________

05-18-2005, 10:06 PM	#5
Master Of Puppets Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,014 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 47	I think the thing is that to lose weight you need a caloric deficit, not to lose fat. If you stay in a caloric surplus, but do some cardio as well, shouldn't bodyfat levels go down? I think that's the writer's point. -MOP __________________

05-18-2005, 10:08 PM	#6
johnsbod Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 2,733 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 60	BTW, I moved this to the nutrition forum. I think this is a better place for this discussion. __________________ Wenn Sie Deutsch sprechen können, posten Sie hier. Misc Perv #69

05-18-2005, 11:38 PM	#7
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,431 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 230	You CAN lose FAT while putting on muscle. I was doing it for about 6 weeks before I switched my routine around to accomodate me a little better. It's a SLOW process, you need to do cardio, heavy weight training, high protein, low carbs (centered around early morning and workouts), moderate fats (not combined in a carb meal). It's really quite difficult to get all this down, but once you understand your own bodytype and what makes YOU work ... this all becomes 2nd nature. You want to keep 'bulking' but want to drop the BF to a respectable level over say, 6-8 months ... then have lesser time to get ready for a contest, so be it. It'd be easier work come contest time (or even summer). __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

05-18-2005, 10:03 PM	#3
Pumpatron Pro Stature Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 161 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 5	I posted the same question on BB.com and somebody gave me the same reply... I've read through that so many times but as much as I'd like to, I can't seem to find the truth in it. He suggests that you are able to stay lean whilst building muscle but how is this possible as to lose fat you need a calorie deficit which basically goes against the whole muscle building process. I'm just so confused at the moment.

05-20-2005, 12:11 AM	#9
MurphMan Robomoderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,598 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 26	Lose bf and gaining LBM.....sounds contradictory but it really isn't. In order to do both at the same time you must follow a very disciplined eating protocol. It consists of varying the ammount of calories you consume in order to positively effect change in your BMR. 4-5 days/week (on your training days) add 2 calories per pound of LBM to your normal caloric intake (maintenance calories). Spread these calories among 5-6 meals per day. Then on the remaining days (off days or cardio days) reduce your caloric intake by 2 calories per pound of LBM. Once you start to gain LBM it is important to adjust your maintenance calories base line upward to reflect the new caloric needs of your increased muscle mass.

05-21-2005, 10:19 PM	#10
EME Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,264 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 51	One reality that everyone has to keep in mind is that few people will actually be able to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, for an extended period of time. There are some individuals that are gifted genetically that can gain mass and lose fat at once, however, there are a lot of people that simply will not be able to add lean mass and lose fat simultaneously, no matter how dialed in their diet and training are. Individuals that are relatively new to training may find that when they first begin a cutting program involving weight training, that they do seem to be gaining muscle and losing fat. Their body's response to the weight training is taking precedence over their state of caloric defecit, and the body is directing hormones to increase protein synthesis in spite of the caloric deficit, to be able to handle the new load placed on the muscles. Individuals who use anabolic agents are often able to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneosly, because the artificially elevated hormone levels cause significant increases in the amount of protein the body can and will synthesize. Therefore, if a person is taking in a high protein diet, moderate carb and low fat diet..the body will direct nearly every gram of protein consumed to be synthesized into muscle, and force the additional necessary energy to come from stored fat.. even in a state of caloric defecit. Some individuals are genetically predisposed to synthesize more protein, and burn more fat naturally than others. It has a lot to do with a person's natural hormone levels, predisposition for fat storage, and propensity for gaining muscle. Not everyone will have the same results, no matter how well designed their training program is. For many, the only way to gain muscle is to eat a caloric surplus and accept that you might gain some fat, or at the very least keep the fat you have. However, this doesn't mean that the only way for some to gain muscle is to blow up and get as big as a house. You can maintain just enough caloric surplus to keep anabolic, but not enough to baloon and get rediculously fat. Although it would be great if we could all naturally gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, it simply isn't going to happen for many of us. Therefore, for a lot, the solution is going to be controlled cycles of focusing on gaining lean mass, and then controlled cycles of stripping of a little more fat while keeping the extra mass you have gained....each step of the way progressing toward your eventual goal. - EME __________________ PhysiqueFXonline - Online Nutrition and Training with Michael and Kendra Elias: www.PhysiqueFXonline.com www.MichaelandKendra.com My wife, and IFBB Fitness Pro Kendra Elias' personal site: www.KendraElias.com Proud member of Team ALR: www.ALRIndustries.com Last edited by EME : 05-21-2005 at 10:59 PM.

05-21-2005, 10:57 PM	#11
johnsbod Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 2,733 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 60	EME, what is your take on the megadose BCAA thing? It seems that quite a few people were able to put on lean mass while cutting, although some of them may fall into the "exceptional genetics" category. Do you think this helps while cutting? __________________ Wenn Sie Deutsch sprechen können, posten Sie hier. Misc Perv #69

05-21-2005, 11:58 PM	#13
johnsbod Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 2,733 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 60	Thanks for the feedback EME. I'm going to try the megadosing in a couple weeks while I finish my cutting for summer. My metabolism had slowed down too much for me to be happy with, so for the past month I've been eating slightly above maintenance and busting my butt in the gym. I don't have a ton more weight to lose for summer, but I'm hoping that the BCAAs will at least help me maintain my muscle mass. This is in addition to a very clean diet of course. __________________ Wenn Sie Deutsch sprechen können, posten Sie hier. Misc Perv #69

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