Carbs and Fat Pre-Bed

danman77220 · 03-14-2008, 05:11 AM

So I've had a question on my mind today.

Fat is the easiest energy source for the body to turn into fat.

So why is it usually recommended to eat fats before bed? For example: I typically see cottage cheese and a serving of natty PB (or something similar) in many peoples diet schemes as a pre-bed meal. Obviously no carbs are wanted because the unused glycogen would be turned into body fat... but what about unused fat? Doesn't it turn to fat when not used?

**Ikaika** · 03-14-2008, 05:28 AM

I use it to slow the digestion of the protein I intake. I don't consume a ton all at once so I expect my body will use it the same way it uses healthy fats during the day.

**DJSTARER** · 03-14-2008, 02:12 PM

EXCESS energy at any ONE time will be turned to fat. With that said, fat metabolizes MUCH slower than any non-fibrous carbohydrate, thus making it LESS likely to be stored as fat at night. It really all comes down to blood sugar levels and the presentation of energy to the body in a given period of time. The reason low carb diets are so great is because they never present energy to the body TOO fast. There may be a lot of energy to be digested, but fat's slow metabolism makes it a "steady" energy source, rather than a significant increase in blood sugar.

In addition, any significant increase in blood sugar will make it physiologically impossible for your body to carry out bodyfat oxidation for metabolism. By eating fat all the time (or at night in your case), your body will not only oxidize the fat you eat, but the fat you are carrying. This is why they say "eat fat to burn fat."

From experience, this is the biggest reason why a person on a low carb diet would not have a large "PWO meal." Fat is metabolized "readily," meaning there are not places where your body stores fat for use like carbohydrates. Yes, the body stores fat for metabolism in the form of adipose, but the body also does not have a system specifically created to increase "fat sensitivity" like it does for carbs. People use carbs around their training because the body more easily is able to control and store them as glycogen. While the body does metabolize ALL nutrients more efficiently after training, fat does not raise blood sugar enough to re-fill glycogen stores in the muscle.

Also, this is a good reason to track your macros in the beginning of any diet plan. It may be that your body can use complex carbs at night. Maybe your glycogen store can be tapped off. Either way, filled glycogen stores make it very difficult to use bodyfat for energy. Fed states increase anabolism/reduce catabolism (from a hormonal level). This is why "bulking" works so well. From a fed and hormonal optimal state, a lifter can make INSANE gains.

Any questions, let them roll.

**DJSTARER** · 03-14-2008, 03:47 PM

Let me give a good analogy:

your metabolism is a funnel. The volume inside the funnel represents your potential glycogen stores. When you exercise, the funnel shakes or vibrates. Carbohydrates are represented by a very fine powder (1 unit of volume), where fat is represented by a sticky goo (2 units of volume because it is double the kcals). When you eat carbs, the powder is dropped into the funnel.

If you drop a bunch of powder into the funnel, and do you best not to shake or vibrate it (being seditary), the funnel will get clogged, having the mess overflow and lead to fat storage.

If the powder is dropped in at a nice, evenly distributed rate in conjunction with a low or only moderately active life style (the funnely shaking a little bit), the powder slips through the funnel efficiently, allowing for a state of homeostasis.

Now let's drop the carbohydrates in at the same rate, but be more active (vibrate the funnel more aggressively). The powder will drop through even faster (a speeding up in metabolism).

Fat, as a goo, will naturally pass through the funnel at a slower rate. But the nice thing about this goo, is regardless of whether you vibrate or shake the funnel, it will not get clogged. Gravity will always take its course. Shaking and tilting the funnel may help the good settle to the bottom where it passes through, but in reality, it only helps marginally (which is why low intensity cardio is recommended while low carb). Of course, pouring more goo into the funnel than the volume will allow, will lead to overflow and fat storage.

The problem americans have is their constant overeating and mixing of goo and fine powder. Don't get me wrong, the goo will make is so the fine powder goes through the funnel more slowly (slows digestion), but the overall caloric needs are more likely to be overdone.

Notes:

The volume (holding capacity) of your funnel is depending on your size, age,sex, and most of all, genetics.

Bigger person= larger funnel
Younger person= larger funnel
Males= larger funnel
Good genetics= larger funnel

**davtown** · 03-16-2008, 06:56 PM

awesome post, DJ. of course I can't rep you for it...

umm, not sure what else to say. although this doesn't have to do with your exact question - raising your blood sugar will cause somatostatin to be released, aka growth hormone inhibiting hormone - and since sleeptime is primetime for GH secretion, you might not want a bunch of somatostatin being released while you're sleeping (aka bunch of carbs before bed). This of course is splitting hairs, but so is most of the ways of bodybuilding nutrition. I don't know the relevance this has to overall gains, probably little, as long as your macros and training are dialed in for the day. Regardless, it's something to ponder....

**DJSTARER** · 03-16-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davtown

awesome post, DJ. of course I can't rep you for it...

umm, not sure what else to say. although this doesn't have to do with your exact question - raising your blood sugar will cause somatostatin to be released, aka growth hormone inhibiting hormone - and since sleeptime is primetime for GH secretion, you might not want a bunch of somatostatin being released while you're sleeping (aka bunch of carbs before bed). This of course is splitting hairs, but so is most of the ways of bodybuilding nutrition. I don't know the relevance this has to overall gains, probably little, as long as your macros and training are dialed in for the day. Regardless, it's something to ponder....

i had never heard that before. Something to ponder, indeed.

But at the same time... i know eating 3 slices of pizza before bed will pack on mass like nothing else.... so science tends to have its limitations.

Also, to add to my previous comments:

the nice thing about eating an excess in calories from FAT (instead of CHO) is that your body will continue to burn fat during its storage. I know that sounds backwards, but because blood sugar levels are so low, and your body's metabolism is so active, you can actually store and burn fat at the same time. With that said, caloric control (as always preached) is the determining factor about whether or not your are gaining or losing weight. Frankly, i'd rather be gaining and burning fat at the same time with fat consumption than storing and NOT burning fat with carbohydrates.

**davtown** · 03-16-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARER

i had never heard that before. Something to ponder, indeed.

But at the same time... i know eating 3 slices of pizza before bed will pack on mass like nothing else.... so science tends to have its limitations.

mmmm... pizza....

Yeah, I didn't want to put too much weight on my post... mostly silly science book knowledge. Last night, part of my last meal was a bowl of honey nut cheerios.... going completely against what I talked about in my last post

I definitely think that overall macros/caloric intake will be the determining factor in the results you desire (along with proper, consistent training and sleep).

Your posts pertaining to the original topic make good sense, I learned a couple things. Thanks.

**b-boy** · 03-19-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARER

EXCESS energy at any ONE time will be turned to fat. With that said, fat metabolizes MUCH slower than any non-fibrous carbohydrate, thus making it LESS likely to be stored as fat at night. It really all comes down to blood sugar levels and the presentation of energy to the body in a given period of time. The reason low carb diets are so great is because they never present energy to the body TOO fast. There may be a lot of energy to be digested, but fat's slow metabolism makes it a "steady" energy source, rather than a significant increase in blood sugar.

In addition, any significant increase in blood sugar will make it physiologically impossible for your body to carry out bodyfat oxidation for metabolism. By eating fat all the time (or at night in your case), your body will not only oxidize the fat you eat, but the fat you are carrying. This is why they say "eat fat to burn fat."

From experience, this is the biggest reason why a person on a low carb diet would not have a large "PWO meal." Fat is metabolized "readily," meaning there are not places where your body stores fat for use like carbohydrates. Yes, the body stores fat for metabolism in the form of adipose, but the body also does not have a system specifically created to increase "fat sensitivity" like it does for carbs. People use carbs around their training because the body more easily is able to control and store them as glycogen. While the body does metabolize ALL nutrients more efficiently after training, fat does not raise blood sugar enough to re-fill glycogen stores in the muscle.

Also, this is a good reason to track your macros in the beginning of any diet plan. It may be that your body can use complex carbs at night. Maybe your glycogen store can be tapped off. Either way, filled glycogen stores make it very difficult to use bodyfat for energy. Fed states increase anabolism/reduce catabolism (from a hormonal level). This is why "bulking" works so well. From a fed and hormonal optimal state, a lifter can make INSANE gains.

Any questions, let them roll.

damn good post DJ

**DJSTARER** · 03-21-2008, 03:31 AM

since macronutrient discussion has become the subject, I'll give an example:

It's 11:27pm, and I'm about to go to sleep. I just had 35g of carbs from waxy maize, and small bowl of oatmeal. What's wrong with this picture? Nothing. What I am failing to leave out is that I just played 40 minutes of basketball, and I am doing my best to kick the cortisol out of my body before I go to sleep. Nightime is anabolic time, and I aim to keep it that way. I knew I had room in my glucose stores, not to mention... even if I didn't... I would more than likely store less fat from this PWO mini-binge than I burned during my cardio. See the balance?

Also, I mixed MCT oil and veggies with my oats. Why? Simple: to slow down the digestion. The waxy maize was for insulin and anti-catabolism. The oats are for replentishment.

Word?

**Ikaika** · 03-21-2008, 03:38 AM

Word up. Dustin knows his shit.

03-14-2008, 05:11 AM	#1
danman77220 Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,011 Recipes: 1 Rep Power: 50	Carbs and Fat Pre-Bed So I've had a question on my mind today. Fat is the easiest energy source for the body to turn into fat. So why is it usually recommended to eat fats before bed? For example: I typically see cottage cheese and a serving of natty PB (or something similar) in many peoples diet schemes as a pre-bed meal. Obviously no carbs are wanted because the unused glycogen would be turned into body fat... but what about unused fat? Doesn't it turn to fat when not used? __________________ Accomplishment tastes better than cheesecake. Stats(/goals): Age: 18 Weight: 193 BF%: 19%/8% Max Lifts B: 240 S: 315+ D: 305+ Goals for graduation B: 275 S: 365 D: 365 Pullups: BW+25x5 Status: Becoming a beast My Training Log

03-14-2008, 05:28 AM	#2
Ikaika shippin dem stacks Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 3,650 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 207	Re: Carbs and Fat Pre-Bed I use it to slow the digestion of the protein I intake. I don't consume a ton all at once so I expect my body will use it the same way it uses healthy fats during the day. __________________ No supplement can make up for the lack of a strong work ethic.

03-14-2008, 02:12 PM	#3
DJSTARER Writing Staff Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 3,912 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 109	Re: Carbs and Fat Pre-Bed EXCESS energy at any ONE time will be turned to fat. With that said, fat metabolizes MUCH slower than any non-fibrous carbohydrate, thus making it LESS likely to be stored as fat at night. It really all comes down to blood sugar levels and the presentation of energy to the body in a given period of time. The reason low carb diets are so great is because they never present energy to the body TOO fast. There may be a lot of energy to be digested, but fat's slow metabolism makes it a "steady" energy source, rather than a significant increase in blood sugar. In addition, any significant increase in blood sugar will make it physiologically impossible for your body to carry out bodyfat oxidation for metabolism. By eating fat all the time (or at night in your case), your body will not only oxidize the fat you eat, but the fat you are carrying. This is why they say "eat fat to burn fat." From experience, this is the biggest reason why a person on a low carb diet would not have a large "PWO meal." Fat is metabolized "readily," meaning there are not places where your body stores fat for use like carbohydrates. Yes, the body stores fat for metabolism in the form of adipose, but the body also does not have a system specifically created to increase "fat sensitivity" like it does for carbs. People use carbs around their training because the body more easily is able to control and store them as glycogen. While the body does metabolize ALL nutrients more efficiently after training, fat does not raise blood sugar enough to re-fill glycogen stores in the muscle. Also, this is a good reason to track your macros in the beginning of any diet plan. It may be that your body can use complex carbs at night. Maybe your glycogen store can be tapped off. Either way, filled glycogen stores make it very difficult to use bodyfat for energy. Fed states increase anabolism/reduce catabolism (from a hormonal level). This is why "bulking" works so well. From a fed and hormonal optimal state, a lifter can make INSANE gains. Any questions, let them roll. __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: Total 1400 in competition

03-14-2008, 03:47 PM	#4
DJSTARER Writing Staff Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 3,912 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 109	Re: Carbs and Fat Pre-Bed Let me give a good analogy: your metabolism is a funnel. The volume inside the funnel represents your potential glycogen stores. When you exercise, the funnel shakes or vibrates. Carbohydrates are represented by a very fine powder (1 unit of volume), where fat is represented by a sticky goo (2 units of volume because it is double the kcals). When you eat carbs, the powder is dropped into the funnel. If you drop a bunch of powder into the funnel, and do you best not to shake or vibrate it (being seditary), the funnel will get clogged, having the mess overflow and lead to fat storage. If the powder is dropped in at a nice, evenly distributed rate in conjunction with a low or only moderately active life style (the funnely shaking a little bit), the powder slips through the funnel efficiently, allowing for a state of homeostasis. Now let's drop the carbohydrates in at the same rate, but be more active (vibrate the funnel more aggressively). The powder will drop through even faster (a speeding up in metabolism). Fat, as a goo, will naturally pass through the funnel at a slower rate. But the nice thing about this goo, is regardless of whether you vibrate or shake the funnel, it will not get clogged. Gravity will always take its course. Shaking and tilting the funnel may help the good settle to the bottom where it passes through, but in reality, it only helps marginally (which is why low intensity cardio is recommended while low carb). Of course, pouring more goo into the funnel than the volume will allow, will lead to overflow and fat storage. The problem americans have is their constant overeating and mixing of goo and fine powder. Don't get me wrong, the goo will make is so the fine powder goes through the funnel more slowly (slows digestion), but the overall caloric needs are more likely to be overdone. Notes: The volume (holding capacity) of your funnel is depending on your size, age,sex, and most of all, genetics. Bigger person= larger funnel Younger person= larger funnel Males= larger funnel Good genetics= larger funnel __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: Total 1400 in competition

03-16-2008, 06:56 PM	#5
davtown OM NOM NOM NOM Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 2,278 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 127	Re: Carbs and Fat Pre-Bed awesome post, DJ. of course I can't rep you for it... umm, not sure what else to say. although this doesn't have to do with your exact question - raising your blood sugar will cause somatostatin to be released, aka growth hormone inhibiting hormone - and since sleeptime is primetime for GH secretion, you might not want a bunch of somatostatin being released while you're sleeping (aka bunch of carbs before bed). This of course is splitting hairs, but so is most of the ways of bodybuilding nutrition. I don't know the relevance this has to overall gains, probably little, as long as your macros and training are dialed in for the day. Regardless, it's something to ponder.... __________________ **MY TRAINING LOG** current/goal D: 330/380 S: 270/300 B: 235/260

03-21-2008, 03:31 AM	#9
DJSTARER Writing Staff Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 3,912 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 109	Re: Carbs and Fat Pre-Bed since macronutrient discussion has become the subject, I'll give an example: It's 11:27pm, and I'm about to go to sleep. I just had 35g of carbs from waxy maize, and small bowl of oatmeal. What's wrong with this picture? Nothing. What I am failing to leave out is that I just played 40 minutes of basketball, and I am doing my best to kick the cortisol out of my body before I go to sleep. Nightime is anabolic time, and I aim to keep it that way. I knew I had room in my glucose stores, not to mention... even if I didn't... I would more than likely store less fat from this PWO mini-binge than I burned during my cardio. See the balance? Also, I mixed MCT oil and veggies with my oats. Why? Simple: to slow down the digestion. The waxy maize was for insulin and anti-catabolism. The oats are for replentishment. Word? __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: Total 1400 in competition

03-21-2008, 03:38 AM	#10
Ikaika shippin dem stacks Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 3,650 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 207	Re: Carbs and Fat Pre-Bed Word up. Dustin knows his shit. __________________ No supplement can make up for the lack of a strong work ethic.

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