Carb Cycling, outdated?

Apootheosis · 08-07-2005, 03:33 PM

Since during the no carb days, protein intake is forced to increase, this will increase insulin output, and thus contradict what carb cycling is trying to achieve, which is a constant shock to the body's system, mainly insulin. Although this has worked for me to an extent, i am wondering, is this diet system just too simple and inefficient?

**The Chosen One** · 08-07-2005, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apootheosis

I am wondering, is this diet system just too simple and inefficient?

I believe so.

Apootheosis · 08-07-2005, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Chosen One

I believe so.

oh well, live and learn

Aftershock · 08-10-2005, 12:23 AM

Since when does protein raise insulin like carbs do?

AS

**powerman2000** · 08-10-2005, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aftershock

Since when does protein raise insulin like carbs do?

AS

I am confused by his first post as well. I don't know if he doesn't know what he is talking about or if he just worded his post poorly and we are now misunderstanding what he actually meant to say.

Beast · 08-10-2005, 03:01 PM

The main point of carb cycling is to control caloric intake. It is much easier to have a day with you each a large amount of calories (in this case carbs) and a day with no carbs then having them all at a lower level of carb intake. The high carb days should serve as a psychology boost or break from the stress of dieting.

Eating protein does cause insulin secretion, but not even close to the amount that carbs cause. That being said, remember it is calories in vs. calories out that determine whether you will lose or gain weight.

Apootheosis · 08-10-2005, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

I am confused by his first post as well. I don't know if he doesn't know what he is talking about or if he just worded his post poorly and we are now misunderstanding what he actually meant to say.

Well, although beast has just clarified to me that protein does not affect insulin as much as carbs do, i wrote it that way because it also takes a very small amount of insulin to activate fat transportation (something i learned somewhere in the nutrition section of this site). I dunno, maybe i just didnt fully understand carb cycling the first time around. I know it had somethin to do with tricking your body in to producing different amounts of insulin. But Il just go with The Chosen One, cause he gave me a definitive answer.

Beast · 08-11-2005, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apootheosis

Well, although beast has just clarified to me that protein does not affect insulin as much as carbs do, i wrote it that way because it also takes a very small amount of insulin to activate fat transportation (something i learned somewhere in the nutrition section of this site). I dunno, maybe i just didnt fully understand carb cycling the first time around. I know it had somethin to do with tricking your body in to producing different amounts of insulin. But Il just go with The Chosen One, cause he gave me a definitive answer.

Anytime you eat you secrete insulin. Again, carb cycling is about controlling caloric intake, not insulin.

Apootheosis · 08-11-2005, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beast

Anytime you eat you secrete insulin. Again, carb cycling is about controlling caloric intake, not insulin.

gee, carb cycling sounds like its just complicating the process of eating sub calorie. Id prefer some other neat trick like ud2.0

**EME** · 08-11-2005, 01:17 AM

Agreed.

No matter what method of food intake you use, it's still about calories in vs. calories out.

I actually find some people have a more difficult time carb cycling because they have more cravings on their low carb days, and then they have a hard time controlling themselves on their high carb days.

Or, I have people who do fairly well until their high carb days, and then once they take in higher carbs they have a hard time going back to the low carbs.

I prefer a more stable daily approach of moderate complex carbs, high low fat protein, and low fat. Once every 5-7 days I recommend a high calorie day. Not necessarily high carb, but total calories about 30%-40% higher with roughly the same macronutrient ratio as the rest of the days of the week.

I feel this helps keep leptin levels elevated and prevents metabolic slowdown that can result from prolonged periods of low calories.

Remember, most of the gimmick diets out there are just that, gimmicks.

When it comes to losing fat.... it's all about burning more than you are taking in. If you are doing that, whether you are carb cycling, or eating the same thing every single day... you will make progress.

- EME

pammiejoe6 · 08-13-2005, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EME

Agreed.

I feel this helps keep leptin levels elevated and prevents metabolic slowdown that can result from prolonged periods of low calories.

- EME

this is KEY IMO...

ive been cycling and taking advantage of the high leptin levels in my body after my cheat days....been working like a charm! too many people forget how important that cheat day is.

Apootheosis · 08-13-2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pammiejoe6

this is KEY IMO...

ive been cycling and taking advantage of the high leptin levels in my body after my cheat days....been working like a charm! too many people forget how important that cheat day is.

Well, in UD2.0 lyle says that 1 day is not enough to raise leptin levels back to average...idunno the thing is kinda confusing, but yeah a thumbs up to cheat days or carb loading definitely

Phosphate bond · 08-19-2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aftershock

Since when does protein raise insulin like carbs do?

AS

Leucine stimulates insulin.

Honestly, I don't really see the point of keto/carb cycling anyway. If you have plenty of lean body mass and low adipose you won't suffer from hyperinsulnemia.

It's the "extra" insulin (late, but excessive response) that results from too many free fatty acids (competitive inhibition at pancreas) floating around in the blood stream that makes carbs so deadly to sedentary people. The more "lean" you are the less insulin you end up secreting for any glycemic load (also no rebound hypoglycemia/cortsiol either)

Lots of talk about insulin making you fat. Yeah excessive insulin maybe. If you want to experience this try injecting the stuff (***sarcasm***, I do not recommmend you actually do this) on top of your normal bodily response. You'll get fat real easy.

Phosphate bond · 08-19-2005, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phosphate bond

The more "lean" you are the less insulin you end up secreting for any glycemic load (also no rebound hypoglycemia/cortsiol either)

I can't edit this post so let me explain. High lean body mass to adipose ratio means free fatty acid levels are low (oxidation rate at muscle exceeds release rate from adipose. It's just the law of supply and demand: Lots of muscle burns fatty acids quicker than tiny bit of adipose can supply). This means any rise in glucose results in immediate oxidation at pancreas (trigger for insulin release) since not much competition from fatty acids is present. Since blood sugar never gets that high (fatty acids do this) not much insulin ever gets released.

Apootheosis · 08-24-2005, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phosphate bond

I can't edit this post so let me explain. High lean body mass to adipose ratio means free fatty acid levels are low (oxidation rate at muscle exceeds release rate from adipose. It's just the law of supply and demand: Lots of muscle burns fatty acids quicker than tiny bit of adipose can supply). This means any rise in glucose results in immediate oxidation at pancreas (trigger for insulin release) since not much competition from fatty acids is present. Since blood sugar never gets that high (fatty acids do this) not much insulin ever gets released.

i dont get it

**powerman2000** · 08-24-2005, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phosphate bond

Honestly, I don't really see the point of keto/carb cycling anyway. If you have plenty of lean body mass and low adipose you won't suffer from hyperinsulnemia.

I always just thought of it in terms of calorie manipulation.

Phosphate bond · 08-24-2005, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apootheosis

i dont get it

This might explain it better.

Let me just add something I didn't in the link below. It's not just calorie levels that determine long term gains [though I admit to eating lots (5,000+ calories/day.) when I am lifting hard]. It's hormone levels and how you train (stimulation of satellite cells and growth factors too) that determine the absolute ceiling of muscle mass. This is why women just can't eat more calories and have just as much muscle as us.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...5&postcount=19

Phosphate bond · 08-24-2005, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

I always just thought of it in terms of calorie manipulation.

It's an interesting diet because it basically gives you a fuel pattern identical to starvation when you are actually taking calories in. In fact, he bases an entire diet on the premise that a hormone that is actually good for you in small amounts is the cause of your troubles. He was only half right though because insulin is good for you except in cases of excess. The normal person might secrete 30 Units (arbitrary number) of insulin per day (normal pancreatized adults need about that much) for a given amount calories, but when they start secreting/or needing 60-100 units for the same calorie load that's when you know they got problems with peripheral tissue sensitivity (due to inactivity) Weightlifting like you said earlier reduces the burden on the pancreas to secrete insulin.

I tried it back when it was hot (many years ago) and I thought it was horrible, but I like lifting weights so that's the reason. The "detraining" that's gonna occur on that diet is not going to be good for someone likes to lift.

I forget to mention there is a lot of other factors that determine the rate of lipolysis (parathyriod hormone, adipocyte receptor beta/alpha distribution: which increases favorably with training, epinephrine response etc). Insulin is only one factor. Besides insulin levels decrease with physical training anyway.

The upshot: Even if this diet had a favorable response of some kind (I don't think it does). The "detraining" that is going to occur will outweigh the benefits (at least that is what I think)

ptest · 07-25-2007, 12:49 PM

I know this post is old, but i wanted to throw in my two cents and maybe see if things pick back up on this. I have done carb cycling for all my contest diets and I have been in shape for every show. It works great, I think calorie in vs calorie out is the key as others have mentioned before. I think what really works with this is your insulin levels stay steady through the day cause your eating consistently throughout the day. The high days really spark your metabolism due to how much you are eating and making yourbody digest. ALso when you get stagnant, a cheat meal or day will fire things up again.

**DJSTARER** · 07-25-2007, 01:25 PM

I agree 100%. This year is my third serious cut, and I am doing so without cardio. I have been following the principles found in the cut diet, whish is a varation on the traditional CKD. I eat VERY low kcals and carbs on my no training days (about 2200), medium kcals on my light training days (about 2900), and super re-feed the night before and day of my heavy training days (about 3800). I have preserved almost all my lean mass, my upper body lifts have stayed the same, and my lower body lifts have continued to go up.

ptest · 07-26-2007, 12:53 AM

NIce DJ....that is what i need to get going again. sticking to a clean rotating diet now. ONce I am fully back from my low back injury then I will be shooting for two high days(non consecutive) and then "normal days" the rest of the week.

**DJSTARER** · 02-19-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apootheosis

Since during the no carb days, protein intake is forced to increase, this will increase insulin output, and thus contradict what carb cycling is trying to achieve, which is a constant shock to the body's system, mainly insulin. Although this has worked for me to an extent, i am wondering, is this diet system just too simple and inefficient?

it, like with any nutrient, depends on the form in which the nutrient is consumed.

Example for protein: Whey vs. Chicken breast
Example for carbohydrate: sugar vs. starch
Exampmle of fat ( a bit more ambiguous): mono/poly vs saturated

RaSP · 08-17-2008, 03:14 PM

Not to dredge this up, but I just stumbled over it. Carb cycling has been the only way I have ever been able to cut while maintaining (usually increasing) my strength. I using it to cut right now for about 10 weeks. I'm down about 20lbs, and all of my lifts have increased during that time.

I think what's being missed in this discussion is that it is a very logical diet in that you "eat for what you just did or are about to do". All you're doing is adjusting carbs by about 25% + or - from a fairly normal cutting (or bulking) routine. There's also some timing in that the bulk of your carbs are pre and post w/o. Also, there are no "no carb days" when this is done properly.

When I'm bulking I gain way less fat just by controlling carb intake on my off days.

I don't care how outdated something is if it works.

*R*

**powerman2000** · 08-17-2008, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaSP

Not to dredge this up, but I just stumbled over it. Carb cycling has been the only way I have ever been able to cut while maintaining (usually increasing) my strength. I using it to cut right now for about 10 weeks. I'm down about 20lbs, and all of my lifts have increased during that time.

I think what's being missed in this discussion is that it is a very logical diet in that you "eat for what you just did or are about to do". All you're doing is adjusting carbs by about 25% + or - from a fairly normal cutting (or bulking) routine. There's also some timing in that the bulk of your carbs are pre and post w/o. Also, there are no "no carb days" when this is done properly.

When I'm bulking I gain way less fat just by controlling carb intake on my off days.

I don't care how outdated something is if it works.

*R*

I pretty much agree with all that.

daylight · 01-19-2009, 04:16 PM

i agree with all that too

08-07-2005, 03:33 PM	#1
Apootheosis Pro Stature Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 625 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 56	Carb Cycling, outdated? Since during the no carb days, protein intake is forced to increase, this will increase insulin output, and thus contradict what carb cycling is trying to achieve, which is a constant shock to the body's system, mainly insulin. Although this has worked for me to an extent, i am wondering, is this diet system just too simple and inefficient?

08-10-2005, 12:23 AM	#4
Aftershock Steel Pimp Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 285 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 41	Since when does protein raise insulin like carbs do? AS __________________ sholiz: im drunk and i want some fruit loops Aftershock: no i know you need to maintain a certain level of professionalism on ironmass Aftershock: how easily i can destroy that... sholiz: just in appearance `````````\\|\|\|/ `````````(o o) ,--ooO-----(_)-------------, \|````````` Aftershock ````\| \|```````````is```````````\| \|``````````sexy````````` \| '--------------Ooo----------' ````````\|__\|__\| `````````\|\|\| \|\| ````````ooO Ooo

08-10-2005, 03:01 PM	#6
Beast IronMass Donator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 176 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 13	The main point of carb cycling is to control caloric intake. It is much easier to have a day with you each a large amount of calories (in this case carbs) and a day with no carbs then having them all at a lower level of carb intake. The high carb days should serve as a psychology boost or break from the stress of dieting. Eating protein does cause insulin secretion, but not even close to the amount that carbs cause. That being said, remember it is calories in vs. calories out that determine whether you will lose or gain weight. __________________ Derek Charlebois www.scivation.com www.primaforce.com Beast Personal Training™ www.beastpersonaltraining.com (coming soon) Contact me for personal training via PM or email me at beastpersonaltraining@gmail.com

08-11-2005, 01:17 AM	#10
EME Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,265 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 177	Agreed. No matter what method of food intake you use, it's still about calories in vs. calories out. I actually find some people have a more difficult time carb cycling because they have more cravings on their low carb days, and then they have a hard time controlling themselves on their high carb days. Or, I have people who do fairly well until their high carb days, and then once they take in higher carbs they have a hard time going back to the low carbs. I prefer a more stable daily approach of moderate complex carbs, high low fat protein, and low fat. Once every 5-7 days I recommend a high calorie day. Not necessarily high carb, but total calories about 30%-40% higher with roughly the same macronutrient ratio as the rest of the days of the week. I feel this helps keep leptin levels elevated and prevents metabolic slowdown that can result from prolonged periods of low calories. Remember, most of the gimmick diets out there are just that, gimmicks. When it comes to losing fat.... it's all about burning more than you are taking in. If you are doing that, whether you are carb cycling, or eating the same thing every single day... you will make progress. - EME __________________ PhysiqueFXonline - Online Nutrition and Training with Michael and Kendra Elias: www.MichaelandKendra.com Team Molecular Nutrition Creative Director FAME Media Group / World Natural Sports Organization Editor-In-Chief FAME Magazine www.FAMEWorldTour.com

07-25-2007, 12:49 PM	#19
ptest Amateur Join Date: May 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 60 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	Re: Carb Cycling, outdated? I know this post is old, but i wanted to throw in my two cents and maybe see if things pick back up on this. I have done carb cycling for all my contest diets and I have been in shape for every show. It works great, I think calorie in vs calorie out is the key as others have mentioned before. I think what really works with this is your insulin levels stay steady through the day cause your eating consistently throughout the day. The high days really spark your metabolism due to how much you are eating and making yourbody digest. ALso when you get stagnant, a cheat meal or day will fire things up again.

07-25-2007, 01:25 PM	#20
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 4,517 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 361	Re: Carb Cycling, outdated? I agree 100%. This year is my third serious cut, and I am doing so without cardio. I have been following the principles found in the cut diet, whish is a varation on the traditional CKD. I eat VERY low kcals and carbs on my no training days (about 2200), medium kcals on my light training days (about 2900), and super re-feed the night before and day of my heavy training days (about 3800). I have preserved almost all my lean mass, my upper body lifts have stayed the same, and my lower body lifts have continued to go up. __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 500 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench TRAINING FOR: USAPL JUNIOR NATIONALS, JUNE 20th, 2010

07-26-2007, 12:53 AM	#21
ptest Amateur Join Date: May 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 60 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	Re: Carb Cycling, outdated? NIce DJ....that is what i need to get going again. sticking to a clean rotating diet now. ONce I am fully back from my low back injury then I will be shooting for two high days(non consecutive) and then "normal days" the rest of the week.

08-17-2008, 03:14 PM	#23
RaSP Pro Stature Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: 66.239.233.115:8080 Posts: 930 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 73	Re: Carb Cycling, outdated? Not to dredge this up, but I just stumbled over it. Carb cycling has been the only way I have ever been able to cut while maintaining (usually increasing) my strength. I using it to cut right now for about 10 weeks. I'm down about 20lbs, and all of my lifts have increased during that time. I think what's being missed in this discussion is that it is a very logical diet in that you "eat for what you just did or are about to do". All you're doing is adjusting carbs by about 25% + or - from a fairly normal cutting (or bulking) routine. There's also some timing in that the bulk of your carbs are pre and post w/o. Also, there are no "no carb days" when this is done properly. When I'm bulking I gain way less fat just by controlling carb intake on my off days. I don't care how outdated something is if it works. R __________________ ~~~Dumb Animal~~~ I am Thee oMega.. GameDayDog is Thee Alpha.. THE DAWG IS BACK... Again.... 6'4" @ 201. Finally got back to 500lb deadlift.

01-19-2009, 04:16 PM	#25
daylight New Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 6 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	Re: Carb Cycling, outdated? i agree with all that too __________________ Women's Clothing/Fashion in Canada designer handbags

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