Calorie Cycling - yes or no?

sLiPkNoT Fan · 03-11-2006, 03:24 PM

I would like to thank everone for their replies to my other thread. It is nice to see such a close community who are willing to share their ideas in a non-confronational manner. I want to now find out what you people think of cycling calories, namely, eating less protein on days off and more on work-out days. I just finished a book called "Fuel Up" and thought it made sense even though most serious bodybuilders like to hammer in the protein everyday of the week. The book also recommends less carbs and fat, which of course is less calories on days when not working out. We are all aware of the need to utilize all of our calories within our "day" (24hrs) as to not contribue to a fat gain. When a person works out hard they can use up to 1000 or more carories that day. On days off, those same 1000 calories can add to the love handles. What do you feel is the best idea regarding proper nutrition when active?

A_N_91 · 03-11-2006, 04:48 PM

I'm also cutting and this is what I do. Everyday my calories are the same. Low fat, Moderate carbs, High Protein. Carbs are only for post-workouts, so it's kinda like Timed Carb Dieting. On days that I don't do weights, I do HIIT and that also gets a post-workout. On days that I don't do any activity, I have more protein, little or no carbs and high protein.

I hope I answered your question.

ZackMurphy · 03-12-2006, 02:08 AM

This is a great question.

So, point #1.
On your off days, though you're working out, your body is still going through a massive rebuild and repair cycle. And in that sense, your caloric and macronutrient needs don't necessarily change simply because you're not benching something. Though you might not need the condensed pre-workout energy of a potato, but you still need to encourage proper nutrient partitioning to juice up and support your muscles.

You know? So calorie cycling, yes, but do you think it's best to cycle down just on your rest days? Go no-carb on your rest days, and your body will take some of your protein and convert it to sugars for CHO-use, or simple catabolize existing tissue for CHO, instead of simply using all your ingested protein for tissue repair/rebuild. Either way, CHO on rest days are a very good idea.

That is, one could argue that the best time to cycle down calories would be more than 5 meals after your last workout, whenever that is, and not simply on a 24-hour clock. Remember, in some respects your body is operating on a plan that revolves around preventing starvation. This puts your "digestive nervous system" on multi-week or multi-month planning cycles, not a 24-hour day.

And point #2.
With respect to going low-carb or no-carb, or whatever-carb, it's best to think of fibrous/veggie carbs and starchy carbs as completely different things in this regard. Even on low-carb days or whatever dietary tweak you're rocking, you still want plentiful fruit and veggies. The nutrient density in both and caloric sparseness of veggies specifically is just too good to pass up, even for you aspiring bb'er types.

Further, your body still craves some starchy CHO early AM to both supply substrate to muscles for use, but also to encourage more proper partitioning of protein. So even if you're cycling down CHO for the day, there's no need to think of the entire day as low carb. Break it down a little more. Start high, drop it down, ramp it up pre/post-workout, then drop it again toward the night.

And all damn day: fruit and veggies.

My $0.02.

A_N_91 · 03-12-2006, 03:51 AM

Good post Zach!

I would go with Point 2. Non-workout days, eating green foods is best...for me atleast.

**DJSTARER** · 03-12-2006, 07:53 PM

Nice post Z!

As for my input, I feel the "24 hour" period is extremely arbitrary. The body doesn't know hours. It knows rest, stress, food, and needs. Generate an understanding of how marcronutrients work and the processses undergone in your body during different periods of the day. Each nutrient has a thermogenic value. That is, the number of kcals needed to use a food's energy (I hope that makes sense). Protein is special in many ways. A large characteristic of protein is that is it is VERY thermogenic. It takes 25% of a amino acid's kcals to properly digest it for energy use, while CHO uses 12% and fat 8%. For a hypothetical example:

If you had 50% of ur total caloric needs coming from protein, and you ate 4000 kcals, then only 3500 would be usable for energy. 4000-(.5X4000X.25).

Depending on how much of ur 4000 total INGESTED kcals come from each nutrient, varies the number of total DIGESTED kcals of energy.

I hope this is graspable.

Don't forget your multi

**NYCmitch25** · 03-12-2006, 07:59 PM

very good zm!!

**powerman2000** · 03-13-2006, 02:14 AM

I like calorie cycling because just like with weightlifting our bodies will accommodate the same caloric intake when it continues day after day. So, I believe in periodizing your calories as well for both cutting and bulking.

For cutting it will help your metabolism stay up as well as your energy levels and also help with your mental attitude. For bulking I believe it will help keep your fat gains to a minimum. You should always keep your body guessing in and out of the gym.

0.02

**powerman2000** · 03-13-2006, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

And point #2.
With respect to going low-carb or no-carb, or whatever-carb, it's best to think of fibrous/veggie carbs and starchy carbs as completely different things in this regard. Even on low-carb days or whatever dietary tweak you're rocking, you still want plentiful fruit and veggies. The nutrient density in both and caloric sparseness of veggies specifically is just too good to pass up, even for you aspiring bb'er types.

Just a warning about fruits. Fructose is primarily stored in the liver and not in your muscles, which is where you would want whatever little carbs you might be eating. I personally believe eating fruit during a cutting cycle is counterproductive. It's this issue with fructose that I also wouldn't recommend drinking any fruit juice or eating fruit for a pwo meal. It won't restore glycogen to your muscles where it's needed most because, as I said before, it get stored in the liver as reserve fuel.

ZackMurphy · 03-13-2006, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Just a warning about fruits. Fructose is primarily stored in the liver and not in your muscles, which is where you would want whatever little carbs you might be eating. I personally believe eating fruit during a cutting cycle is counterproductive. It's this issue with fructose that I also wouldn't recommend drinking any fruit juice or eating fruit for a pwo meal. It won't restore glycogen to your muscles where it's needed most because, as I said before, it get stored in the liver as reserve fuel.

I'm not looking at fruit simply as a CHO source - I'm looking at the micronutrients, vits and minerals, antioxidants, etc., that just doesn't come in fruit-free diets.

Yes, there is the fructose factor, and that they aren't as CHO-sparse as veggies, but there is more to fruit than just sugars.

**DJSTARER** · 03-13-2006, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

I'm not looking at fruit simply as a CHO source - I'm looking at the micronutrients, vits and minerals, antioxidants, etc., that just doesn't come in fruit-free diets.

Yes, there is the fructose factor, and that they aren't as CHO-sparse as veggies, but there is more to fruit than just sugars.

Not all fruits are created equal.

The difference between apples and bananas is day and early evening.

**powerman2000** · 03-13-2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

I'm not looking at fruit simply as a CHO source - I'm looking at the micronutrients, vits and minerals, antioxidants, etc., that just doesn't come in fruit-free diets.

Yes, there is the fructose factor, and that they aren't as CHO-sparse as veggies, but there is more to fruit than just sugars.

I think most peeps are aware of that, but imo it's not worth the trade off when attempting a fat cutting diet.

**DJSTARER** · 03-13-2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

I think most peeps are aware of that, but imo it's not worth the trade off when attempting a fat cutting diet.

Not when multi vits exist

DarkFalcon · 03-13-2006, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARER

Not when multi vits exist

Man cannot survive on multi's alone. :p

ZackMurphy · 03-13-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

I think most peeps are aware of that, but imo it's not worth the trade off when attempting a fat cutting diet.

I don't disgree, and for those on a diet trying to go from 6% bf to 4% bf, this may matter, but for the 6g of fructose (per 100g of apple), this seems like unnecessary precision, even on a serious cutting diet. Not exactly dealing with big numbers, there, you know? Besides, yes, fruc will go toward liver stores, but a liver topped off with glycogen is a good thing. As you know.

03-12-2006, 07:53 PM	#5
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 4,166 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 118	Nice post Z! As for my input, I feel the "24 hour" period is extremely arbitrary. The body doesn't know hours. It knows rest, stress, food, and needs. Generate an understanding of how marcronutrients work and the processses undergone in your body during different periods of the day. Each nutrient has a thermogenic value. That is, the number of kcals needed to use a food's energy (I hope that makes sense). Protein is special in many ways. A large characteristic of protein is that is it is VERY thermogenic. It takes 25% of a amino acid's kcals to properly digest it for energy use, while CHO uses 12% and fat 8%. For a hypothetical example: If you had 50% of ur total caloric needs coming from protein, and you ate 4000 kcals, then only 3500 would be usable for energy. 4000-(.5X4000X.25). Depending on how much of ur 4000 total INGESTED kcals come from each nutrient, varies the number of total DIGESTED kcals of energy. I hope this is graspable. Don't forget your multi __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: 500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

03-13-2006, 02:14 AM	#7
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,247 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 203	I like calorie cycling because just like with weightlifting our bodies will accommodate the same caloric intake when it continues day after day. So, I believe in periodizing your calories as well for both cutting and bulking. For cutting it will help your metabolism stay up as well as your energy levels and also help with your mental attitude. For bulking I believe it will help keep your fat gains to a minimum. You should always keep your body guessing in and out of the gym. 0.02 __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

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03-11-2006, 03:24 PM	#1
sLiPkNoT Fan New Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 23 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	Calorie Cycling - yes or no? I would like to thank everone for their replies to my other thread. It is nice to see such a close community who are willing to share their ideas in a non-confronational manner. I want to now find out what you people think of cycling calories, namely, eating less protein on days off and more on work-out days. I just finished a book called "Fuel Up" and thought it made sense even though most serious bodybuilders like to hammer in the protein everyday of the week. The book also recommends less carbs and fat, which of course is less calories on days when not working out. We are all aware of the need to utilize all of our calories within our "day" (24hrs) as to not contribue to a fat gain. When a person works out hard they can use up to 1000 or more carories that day. On days off, those same 1000 calories can add to the love handles. What do you feel is the best idea regarding proper nutrition when active? __________________ ACL reconstruction - Feb 27/2006 Rehab - 3 to 4 months Back to the gym - Priceless!!

03-11-2006, 04:48 PM	#2
A_N_91 Pro Stature Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 849 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	I'm also cutting and this is what I do. Everyday my calories are the same. Low fat, Moderate carbs, High Protein. Carbs are only for post-workouts, so it's kinda like Timed Carb Dieting. On days that I don't do weights, I do HIIT and that also gets a post-workout. On days that I don't do any activity, I have more protein, little or no carbs and high protein. I hope I answered your question.

03-12-2006, 02:08 AM	#3
ZackMurphy IronMass Donator Join Date: May 2005 Location: Folsom, CA Posts: 547 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 9	This is a great question. So, point #1. On your off days, though you're working out, your body is still going through a massive rebuild and repair cycle. And in that sense, your caloric and macronutrient needs don't necessarily change simply because you're not benching something. Though you might not need the condensed pre-workout energy of a potato, but you still need to encourage proper nutrient partitioning to juice up and support your muscles. You know? So calorie cycling, yes, but do you think it's best to cycle down just on your rest days? Go no-carb on your rest days, and your body will take some of your protein and convert it to sugars for CHO-use, or simple catabolize existing tissue for CHO, instead of simply using all your ingested protein for tissue repair/rebuild. Either way, CHO on rest days are a very good idea. That is, one could argue that the best time to cycle down calories would be more than 5 meals after your last workout, whenever that is, and not simply on a 24-hour clock. Remember, in some respects your body is operating on a plan that revolves around preventing starvation. This puts your "digestive nervous system" on multi-week or multi-month planning cycles, not a 24-hour day. And point #2. With respect to going low-carb or no-carb, or whatever-carb, it's best to think of fibrous/veggie carbs and starchy carbs as completely different things in this regard. Even on low-carb days or whatever dietary tweak you're rocking, you still want plentiful fruit and veggies. The nutrient density in both and caloric sparseness of veggies specifically is just too good to pass up, even for you aspiring bb'er types. Further, your body still craves some starchy CHO early AM to both supply substrate to muscles for use, but also to encourage more proper partitioning of protein. So even if you're cycling down CHO for the day, there's no need to think of the entire day as low carb. Break it down a little more. Start high, drop it down, ramp it up pre/post-workout, then drop it again toward the night. And all damn day: fruit and veggies. My $0.02.

03-12-2006, 03:51 AM	#4
A_N_91 Pro Stature Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 849 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	Good post Zach! I would go with Point 2. Non-workout days, eating green foods is best...for me atleast.

03-12-2006, 07:59 PM	#6
NYCmitch25 Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,117 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 52	very good zm!!