TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK *OFFICIAL*

**DJSTARER** · 08-12-2007, 03:47 PM

This thread has been created to enlighten everyone about the pros and cons of both clean bulking and bulk/cutting. To anyone who doesn't know the difference, here are the basics:

Bulk/Cut- When a significant duration of time is spent eating an abundance of calories (300-700 over your maintenance level) until your BF levels reach a point you believe is too high. At this point, you drop into a caloric deficit for a significant duration of time until your bodyfat returns to a desired level.

Clean Bulk- When a caloric surplus is eaten year round, but not to the point where huge strength and size gains occur rapidly. Instead, slow, continual progress takes place which never requires (or very rarely requires) dropping calories below maintenance. Generally, significant amounts are cardio is done during a clean bulk, along with meticulous control over one's nutrition.

Here are the rules:

All posts giving supportive reason FOR the use of Bulk/Cut should be posted in RED, while all posts giving supportive FOR the use of Clean Bulking should be posted in GREEN. There will be NO FLAMING, and only smart, openminded discussion.

**DJSTARER** · 08-12-2007, 03:51 PM

I'll start

When I bulk/cut, I feel as though I'm making more progress. My lifts go up really fast and I gain a ton of size. Even when I have to cut, I don't mind much because I can see the progress my hard nutritional work is doing. Leaning out is fun, and it reveals the muscle you put on during the bulk.

XiLe Ultra · 08-12-2007, 05:19 PM

I Bulk/Cut because in my opinion it is easier because I don't have to cook every meal during the bulk, and on my bulk I never feel guilty when I add a little junk food to my diet. (also I agree with DJSTARER's post)

**DJSTARER** · 08-18-2007, 07:15 PM

c'mon guys. I want some debate!

I'll even play devil's advocate.

Why the hell would anyone bulk and cut when the same gains will be made in the long run clean bulking... PLUS you get to stay lean year round! It doesn't make any sense to me. Plus, don't you all think it is unhealthy to constantly be adding and dropping so much weight all the time? It's supposed to be a lifestyle change, meaning you eat the right foods, in the right portions, year round. None of this binging and then starving stuff. When you are cutting, you are vulnerable to injury. Who wants that?

**Ikaika** · 08-18-2007, 07:22 PM

I clean bulk because I absolutely hate gaining all that fat and then having to lose it again. If I'm training hard and eating right I can keep growing and put on minimal fat while I do it.

**romanaz** · 08-18-2007, 07:31 PM

I prefer the clean bulk if one is lean enough already. The strenght gains, and for that matter, strength loss in most, on a cut/bulk makes it hard to keep or appreciate strength or size gains. On a clean bulk, strength SHOULD continually increase, as long as training is smart and periodized correctly. I personally agree with a more drastic approach to bodybuiling, the DoggCrapp principles, which would be something similar to : Eat like a 300lb guy, cardio like a guy @ 8% and become 250lbs and huge. <-- Paraphrased from Dante.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of cardio anyhow.

**davtown** · 08-18-2007, 08:38 PM

I realized that I'm in no rush.... so clean bulk for me. I don't want to look horrible for part of the year and then have to deal with starving myself so I can look good again (and only for a little while until I start packing on those pounds again). I'd rather stay sub 10% bodyfat and look good year round while making gradual progress. Ecto for life.

**DJSTARER** · 08-18-2007, 11:59 PM

Okay, now we are talking. Frankly, I'm not saying people should become lard asses. A good bulk would be to the 17-18% BF(NO HIGHER THAN 20!). What about the mental stress and monotony of clean bulking? From an existential point of view, we only live once, and clean bulking can be very strict for most. It's a ton of fun to go out to Denny's after a night of partying and get a Grand Slam breakfast.... certainly anabolic... and I eat it knowing I will likely set a 2 rep or 10 lb PR the next day.

XiLe Ultra · 08-19-2007, 04:45 AM

Everyone has so much work, and even more work, dirty bulks make it so we could just have fun during our bulks and not make it another job (cooking, cleaning up cooked food, and all). Not to use the bulk as an excuse to devour 1000s of calories of junk, but having junk in moderation is fun, the meals don't have to be unhealthy either, it's worth eating many satisfying meals and gaining a little extra fat, we earn it don't we?

**davtown** · 08-19-2007, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJSTARER

Okay, now we are talking. Frankly, I'm not saying people should become lard asses. A good bulk would be to the 17-18% BF(NO HIGHER THAN 20!). What about the mental stress and monotony of clean bulking? From an existential point of view, we only live once, and clean bulking can be very strict for most. It's a ton of fun to go out to Denny's after a night of partying and get a Grand Slam breakfast.... certainly anabolic... and I eat it knowing I will likely set a 2 rep or 10 lb PR the next day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XiLe Ultra

Everyone has so much work, and even more work, dirty bulks make it so we could just have fun during our bulks and not make it another job (cooking, cleaning up cooked food, and all). Not to use the bulk as an excuse to devour 1000s of calories of junk, but having junk in moderation is fun, the meals don't have to be unhealthy either, it's worth eating many satisfying meals and gaining a little extra fat, we earn it don't we?

Personal perspective comes into play here..... I wouldn't have a problem going to Dennys after a night of partying or going out to eat..... as long as you look at the big picture, you can still place those things into your diet as long as you know what you're doing. I am an ecto and my body absolutely hates to put on fat, so I can get away with a hell of a lot more junk than people expect.

In response to DJ's post - 17-18% is WAY too high for someone like me.... I could never imagine being that high. 13-14% is quite fat for me. If I'm not under 10%, I'm too fat (at least at my current age). 10 is about as high as I'll ever let myself go for the time being. I remember a post of yours from long ago saying that you made the best gains from 12-15% bodyfat, but it's just not worth it to me..... I feel sluggish and terrible when I'm at 12-13%, I need to be lower if I want to feel healthy. The cons of the traditional bulk/cut are too much for me to do it.

to XU's post - whether or not I'm clean bulking or doing a bulk/cut as is being discussed..... I still cook almost every single one of my meals and clean up after myself. If you want to make gains, diet becomes a job (unless you really really really don't care about gaining fat). I have passed the point of caring about cooking/cleaning/etc and I just do it now. If I just eat reguarly, then it's a clean bulk... I have to try and stuff my stomach like crazy if I want to do a traditional bulk, so that's probably a big part of the reason I answer the way I do.

XiLe Ultra · 08-19-2007, 05:38 AM

A good answer, but I disagree on the part where you said really really don't care about gaining fat, I do still cut, I leave the fat gains on the bulks...and yes diet comes as a job, but the only job for me is on my cut, my bulks are fun.

**Ikaika** · 08-19-2007, 08:10 AM

I can get away with a TON of crap food on Saturdays if I behave during the rest of the week. I'm still able to have a beer at happy hour with my colleagues or have a nice dinner...just no fast food and no other garbage during the week.

To be honest, I hardly count calories anymore, I just count protein and then guesstimate the rest because I've been doing it for so long.

Drew1200 · 08-20-2007, 01:49 AM

Perma-Bulk

there's a difference between big & strong, and "fit". I want to be big and strong, and don't really care if I have too much fat on me to look like a fitness model. Once I'm 280lbs I'll start cutting, but up until that point the way I see it everytime I "cut" I'm inhibiting my gains, and its going to take me that much longer to be where I want to.

I do cardio a couple times a week just for the heart, and my diet is more just making sure I'm eating clean and getting enough protein. So its not a sloppy bulk, but I haven't been in a calorie deficit in years.

Anyways. Being able to deadlift 800lbs is more important to me than a sixpack.

danman77220 · 08-20-2007, 02:23 AM

Though in the past I've always adopted the bulk/cut way of nutrition, I'm slowly adopting a clean bulk philosophy. Yeah, bulking is always fun, binging on pizza and other dirty foods is something everyone would love to do all the time (myself included), but for me, the thought of looking good all year round is more appealing.

I used to be FAT. I mean it was terrible, my BF% was probably upwards of 35%. It has always been my goal to never get to that state again and to always look good to myself. It is for this reason I always regret going into a "bulk." I'm not saying that bulking makes people fat or anything, but by the end of a bulk I hate the way I look and can't stand the way I feel. The feeling of being healthy and eating clean is always more satisfying to me than fast food, cheesecake, etc. Strength gains are something important to me, and are always nice, but being an endo it is still fairly easy for me to pack on mass. Being in a saturated state will obviously amplify this effect, but I can still achieve my strength/size gains without having to shovel down food and add excess bodyfat, which is my worst fear. As such, clean bulking will most likely be in the cards for me once I get down to my desired BF%.

METAL VIPER · 08-20-2007, 05:28 AM

I clean bulk year round. I don't want to have to deal with a drop in aesthetic appeal with added fat, and then go to the other extreme and cut. Besides with a balls to the wall bulk where you eat anything in sight you risk adipocyte hyperplasia. The body can only add so much muscle mass at a time. Eating less nutritional shit along with protein isn't going to get you any bigger - well I should say isn't going to build more muscle. Why not just eat sensible, nutritionally sound protein packed meals. It's how I eat and I'm making PR's every workout. If you ingest more calories than you burn, you're going to gain. Do you want maximal muscle with little to no fat or both?

Great article on the subject: TESTOSTERONE NATION - The Truth About Bulking

View Poll Results: Which method do YOU follow/like more?
I'm a Bulker and Cutter	6	31.58%
I'm a Cleanbulker	13	68.42%
I've never considered my nutrition to be important and will never make the gains I should be.	0	0%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

08-12-2007, 03:47 PM	#1
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 3,995 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 113	TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL This thread has been created to enlighten everyone about the pros and cons of both clean bulking and bulk/cutting. To anyone who doesn't know the difference, here are the basics: Bulk/Cut- When a significant duration of time is spent eating an abundance of calories (300-700 over your maintenance level) until your BF levels reach a point you believe is too high. At this point, you drop into a caloric deficit for a significant duration of time until your bodyfat returns to a desired level. Clean Bulk- When a caloric surplus is eaten year round, but not to the point where huge strength and size gains occur rapidly. Instead, slow, continual progress takes place which never requires (or very rarely requires) dropping calories below maintenance. Generally, significant amounts are cardio is done during a clean bulk, along with meticulous control over one's nutrition. Here are the rules: All posts giving supportive reason FOR the use of Bulk/Cut should be posted in RED, while all posts giving supportive FOR the use of Clean Bulking should be posted in GREEN. There will be NO FLAMING, and only smart, openminded discussion. __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: 500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

08-12-2007, 03:51 PM	#2
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 3,995 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 113	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL I'll start When I bulk/cut, I feel as though I'm making more progress. My lifts go up really fast and I gain a ton of size. Even when I have to cut, I don't mind much because I can see the progress my hard nutritional work is doing. Leaning out is fun, and it reveals the muscle you put on during the bulk. __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: 500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

08-12-2007, 05:19 PM	#3
XiLe Ultra Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Aurora, IL Posts: 2,341 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 183	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL I Bulk/Cut because in my opinion it is easier because I don't have to cook every meal during the bulk, and on my bulk I never feel guilty when I add a little junk food to my diet. (also I agree with DJSTARER's post) __________________ Deadlift: 405 Bench: 225 Squat: somewhere inbetween MP #17 (no G & N)

08-18-2007, 07:15 PM	#4
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 3,995 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 113	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL c'mon guys. I want some debate! I'll even play devil's advocate. Why the hell would anyone bulk and cut when the same gains will be made in the long run clean bulking... PLUS you get to stay lean year round! It doesn't make any sense to me. Plus, don't you all think it is unhealthy to constantly be adding and dropping so much weight all the time? It's supposed to be a lifestyle change, meaning you eat the right foods, in the right portions, year round. None of this binging and then starving stuff. When you are cutting, you are vulnerable to injury. Who wants that? __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: 500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

08-18-2007, 07:22 PM	#5
Ikaika resident degen Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 3,666 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 214	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL I clean bulk because I absolutely hate gaining all that fat and then having to lose it again. If I'm training hard and eating right I can keep growing and put on minimal fat while I do it. __________________ No supplement can make up for the lack of a strong work ethic.

08-18-2007, 08:38 PM	#7
davtown OM NOM NOM NOM Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 2,360 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 128	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL I realized that I'm in no rush.... so clean bulk for me. I don't want to look horrible for part of the year and then have to deal with starving myself so I can look good again (and only for a little while until I start packing on those pounds again). I'd rather stay sub 10% bodyfat and look good year round while making gradual progress. Ecto for life. __________________ --Training Journal-- current/goal D: 350/380 S: 280/300 B: 235/260

08-18-2007, 11:59 PM	#8
DJSTARER eating more folate... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: State College, PA Posts: 3,995 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 113	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL Okay, now we are talking. Frankly, I'm not saying people should become lard asses. A good bulk would be to the 17-18% BF(NO HIGHER THAN 20!). What about the mental stress and monotony of clean bulking? From an existential point of view, we only live once, and clean bulking can be very strict for most. It's a ton of fun to go out to Denny's after a night of partying and get a Grand Slam breakfast.... certainly anabolic... and I eat it knowing I will likely set a 2 rep or 10 lb PR the next day. __________________ My philosophies on training: "Extreme training yields extreme results" "Just because you can, does not mean you should" "The best program is the one you are not doing" Penn State Powerlifting-181 lb weightclass PGA Professional of America Current Stats: 474 Squat 601 Deadlift 320 Bench Goals for next training cycle: 500lbs squat and a total over 1400 in competition

08-19-2007, 04:45 AM	#9
XiLe Ultra Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Aurora, IL Posts: 2,341 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 183	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL Everyone has so much work, and even more work, dirty bulks make it so we could just have fun during our bulks and not make it another job (cooking, cleaning up cooked food, and all). Not to use the bulk as an excuse to devour 1000s of calories of junk, but having junk in moderation is fun, the meals don't have to be unhealthy either, it's worth eating many satisfying meals and gaining a little extra fat, we earn it don't we? __________________ Deadlift: 405 Bench: 225 Squat: somewhere inbetween MP #17 (no G & N)

08-19-2007, 05:38 AM	#11
XiLe Ultra Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Aurora, IL Posts: 2,341 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 183	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL A good answer, but I disagree on the part where you said really really don't care about gaining fat, I do still cut, I leave the fat gains on the bulks...and yes diet comes as a job, but the only job for me is on my cut, my bulks are fun. __________________ Deadlift: 405 Bench: 225 Squat: somewhere inbetween MP #17 (no G & N)

08-19-2007, 08:10 AM	#12
Ikaika resident degen Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 3,666 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 214	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL I can get away with a TON of crap food on Saturdays if I behave during the rest of the week. I'm still able to have a beer at happy hour with my colleagues or have a nice dinner...just no fast food and no other garbage during the week. To be honest, I hardly count calories anymore, I just count protein and then guesstimate the rest because I've been doing it for so long. __________________ No supplement can make up for the lack of a strong work ethic.

08-20-2007, 01:49 AM	#13
Drew1200 Perma-Bulk to 280 Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 779 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 73	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL Perma-Bulk there's a difference between big & strong, and "fit". I want to be big and strong, and don't really care if I have too much fat on me to look like a fitness model. Once I'm 280lbs I'll start cutting, but up until that point the way I see it everytime I "cut" I'm inhibiting my gains, and its going to take me that much longer to be where I want to. I do cardio a couple times a week just for the heart, and my diet is more just making sure I'm eating clean and getting enough protein. So its not a sloppy bulk, but I haven't been in a calorie deficit in years. Anyways. Being able to deadlift 800lbs is more important to me than a sixpack.

08-20-2007, 02:23 AM	#14
danman77220 Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,021 Recipes: 1 Rep Power: 50	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL Though in the past I've always adopted the bulk/cut way of nutrition, I'm slowly adopting a clean bulk philosophy. Yeah, bulking is always fun, binging on pizza and other dirty foods is something everyone would love to do all the time (myself included), but for me, the thought of looking good all year round is more appealing. I used to be FAT. I mean it was terrible, my BF% was probably upwards of 35%. It has always been my goal to never get to that state again and to always look good to myself. It is for this reason I always regret going into a "bulk." I'm not saying that bulking makes people fat or anything, but by the end of a bulk I hate the way I look and can't stand the way I feel. The feeling of being healthy and eating clean is always more satisfying to me than fast food, cheesecake, etc. Strength gains are something important to me, and are always nice, but being an endo it is still fairly easy for me to pack on mass. Being in a saturated state will obviously amplify this effect, but I can still achieve my strength/size gains without having to shovel down food and add excess bodyfat, which is my worst fear. As such, clean bulking will most likely be in the cards for me once I get down to my desired BF%. __________________ Accomplishment tastes better than cheesecake. Stats(/goals): Age: 18 Weight: 193 BF%: 19%/8% Max Lifts B: Poop S: Pee D: Status: Gaining back strength and size after tonsillectomy My Training Log

08-20-2007, 05:28 AM	#15
METAL VIPER SEEK & DESTROY Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 541 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 46	Re: TO BULK/CUT or CLEAN BULK OFFICIAL I clean bulk year round. I don't want to have to deal with a drop in aesthetic appeal with added fat, and then go to the other extreme and cut. Besides with a balls to the wall bulk where you eat anything in sight you risk adipocyte hyperplasia. The body can only add so much muscle mass at a time. Eating less nutritional shit along with protein isn't going to get you any bigger - well I should say isn't going to build more muscle. Why not just eat sensible, nutritionally sound protein packed meals. It's how I eat and I'm making PR's every workout. If you ingest more calories than you burn, you're going to gain. Do you want maximal muscle with little to no fat or both? Great article on the subject: TESTOSTERONE NATION - The Truth About Bulking __________________ \m/ METALLICA \m/ R.I.P. Cliff Burton:2/10/62-9/26/86 DIE, by my hand, I creep across the land, killing first born man