Bulk or Cut?

mistermuscles · 08-31-2005, 01:57 AM

Hey,
My goal in 6 months is to gain 20 lbs of muscle, and lose 16 lbs of fat. Now, normally, I am not in this kind of situation (It's either one or the other), so I'm not really sure what to do.

Do you think that I should Cut (Only like 100 cals under maintenance/day), or do a Clean Bulk (500 cals over maintenance/day)?

I'm just worried that if I clean bulk, I will put on fat, or stay at the same bodyfat %, and that if I cut, I will only be able to put on like 5 lbs of muscle in the 6 month period.

What would you suggest?

Thanks!
-MM

**schroeder** · 08-31-2005, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermuscles

Hey,
My goal in 6 months is to gain 20 lbs of muscle, and lose 16 lbs of fat. Now, normally, I am not in this kind of situation (It's either one or the other), so I'm not really sure what to do.

Do you think that I should Cut (Only like 100 cals under maintenance/day), or do a Clean Bulk (500 cals over maintenance/day)?

I'm just worried that if I clean bulk, I will put on fat, or stay at the same bodyfat %, and that if I cut, I will only be able to put on like 5 lbs of muscle in the 6 month period.

What would you suggest?

Thanks!
-MM

i've always found trying to mix bulk while worrying about fat gain to be a bitch (excuse my french). i'd say bulk for 4 and cut for 2. those are pretty monsterous goals you have......good luck! why don't you try increasing cals by 250 each month....maybe 250 500 750 750?

mistermuscles · 08-31-2005, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schroeder

i've always found trying to mix bulk while worrying about fat gain to be a bitch (excuse my french). i'd say bulk for 4 and cut for 2. those are pretty monsterous goals you have......good luck! why don't you try increasing cals by 250 each month....maybe 250 500 750 750?

Hey!,
Thanks for the quick reply! That sounds like a good idea, I will increase cals by 250 each month for 4 months.

Do you recommend cutting for the first 2 months, or for the last 2?

Thanks for your support! Haha, yeah, those are big ass goals for sure, but I haven't really lifted that much for the last 6 months due to a serious neck injury, so I'm hoping that I will shock my body into growing after being off for so long. We'll see!

If my plan works like I hoped, I will end up at 200 lbs even at 9-10% bodyfat. I can't wait!

**Pioneer** · 08-31-2005, 02:11 AM

winter is coming, all out bulk, no need to cut since youre not going ot be ripping off your shirt much.

**schroeder** · 08-31-2005, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermuscles

Hey!,
Thanks for the quick reply! That sounds like a good idea, I will increase cals by 250 each month for 4 months.

Do you recommend cutting for the first 2 months, or for the last 2?

Thanks for your support! Haha, yeah, those are big ass goals for sure, but I haven't really lifted that much for the last 6 months due to a serious neck injury, so I'm hoping that I will shock my body into growing after being off for so long. We'll see!

If my plan works like I hoped, I will end up at 200 lbs even at 9-10% bodyfat. I can't wait!

i'd suggest the last 2....you never know....you could be blessed with great genetics and be able to pack on massive amounts of muscle with very little fat gain. you might be able to run a 6 months bulk. if so you'd be one lucky dude. i found 4 months of bulking at anywhere from 750-1000 calories over maint. should out on about 4-6 pounds a month with minimal fat gain....but that's me (granted it's a stress free month with ample time to sleep, lift, and feast)....it took 2 years to get all the variable right for me....

mistermuscles · 08-31-2005, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schroeder

i'd suggest the last 2....you never know....you could be blessed with great genetics and be able to pack on massive amounts of muscle with very little fat gain. you might be able to run a 6 months bulk. if so you'd be one lucky dude. i found 4 months of bulking at anywhere from 750-1000 calories over maint. should out on about 4-6 pounds a month with minimal fat gain....but that's me (granted it's a stress free month with ample time to sleep, lift, and feast)....it took 2 years to get all the variable right for me....

Cool. Thanks again man, I really appreciate it.

My Dad used to Powerlift/Bodybuild, and I believe that at his peak, he was 5'11, 240 lbs, 15-16% bodyfat. And my uncle on my Mother's side is now 6'2, 244 lbs, 17% bodyfat. And he doesn't even lift that much. Neither of them counted calories or anything like that.

Hopefully I have their genetics, but we will see!

**schroeder** · 08-31-2005, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermuscles

Cool. Thanks again man, I really appreciate it.

My Dad used to Powerlift/Bodybuild, and I believe that at his peak, he was 5'11, 240 lbs, 13% bodyfat. And my uncle on my Mother's side is now 6'2, 244 lbs, 17% bodyfat. And he doesn't even lift that much. Neither of them counted calories or anything like that.

Hopefully I have their genetics, but we will see!

no probelm man. and yes....i would love their gentics too

mistermuscles · 08-31-2005, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schroeder

no probelm man. and yes....i would love their gentics too

Haha yeah, I'm not sure if I have them though.

My uncle (who I just spoke about) has a brother who is 5'10 and 165 lbs at 10% bodyfat. So, I think I am kinda in-between, because I am in no way monster-ish like 240 lbs. Haha.

I have really broad/wide shoulders, so that is kind of a dis-advantage to me, because I need bigger lats and shoulders than most in order to look as impressive.

I will keep you guys updated!

**EME** · 08-31-2005, 02:44 AM

Hey Mistermuscles,

The problem with bulking first and then cutting, when you want to get leaner AND bigger, is that you aren't going to get rid of the fat you have now while you are bulking.

So, even if you pack on a lot of muscle during your bulk, you're eventually going to have to drop any fat you put on while you were bulking, plus you're still going to have to deal with the original fat you had in the first place.

The cutting necessary to lose the new fat, and the original fat, may result in you losing a significant amount of your new muscle mass.

For someone who truly wants to change their physique into a leaner and bigger version of their current self, I always recommend that you get rid of the fat you have now, and then work hard to add lean muscle while keeping the fat gain to a minimum.

By getting lean first, then adding mass, the only fat you have to eventually take off is the small amount you may add during your mass building phase. You don't have to go back and deal with the original fat you had to begin with.

This process may result in you being smaller than you want to be for a short period of time, while you are getting lean.. but in the long run you will truly end up with the physique you are looking for.

- EME

mistermuscles · 08-31-2005, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EME

Hey Mistermuscles,

The problem with bulking first and then cutting, when you want to get leaner AND bigger, is that you aren't going to get rid of the fat you have now while you are bulking.

So, even if you pack on a lot of muscle during your bulk, you're eventually going to have to drop any fat you put on while you were bulking, plus you're still going to have to deal with the original fat you had in the first place.

The cutting necessary to lose the new fat, and the original fat, may result in you losing a significant amount of your new muscle mass.

For someone who truly wants to change their physique into a leaner and bigger version of their current self, I always recommend that you get rid of the fat you have now, and then work hard to add lean muscle while keeping the fat gain to a minimum.

By getting lean first, then adding mass, the only fat you have to eventually take off is the small amount you may add during your mass building phase. You don't have to go back and deal with the original fat you had to begin with.

This process may result in you being smaller than you want to be for a short period of time, while you are getting lean.. but in the long run you will truly end up with the physique you are looking for.

- EME

Hey,
Thanks for the reply EME!

That was what I initially thinking I would do, but the only problem I could see with that would be loss of LBM while I am cutting. But, I guess that would happen regardless if I cut now, or 6 months from now.

Thanks again for your reply! It is much appreciated!

Take Care,
-MM

**EME** · 08-31-2005, 03:01 AM

Yes,

Either way, you always run the risk of losing some LBM when cutting, but you can mizimize it with proper diet and training.

The thing is, you're going to have less total fat to lose now than you will later, and the less total fat you have to lose, the less time you have to spend cutting, and the less time your muscle is in jeopardy.

Plus, if you get rid of it now, you'll never have to deal with it again.... if you bulk now....you're just prolonging the inevitable... eventually you're going to have to deal with it if you want a lean body.

- EME

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermuscles

Hey,
Thanks for the reply EME!

That was what I initially thinking I would do, but the only problem I could see with that would be loss of LBM while I am cutting. But, I guess that would happen regardless if I cut now, or 6 months from now.

Thanks again for your reply! It is much appreciated!

Take Care,
-MM

GameDayDog · 08-31-2005, 06:43 AM

Hahaha.. Then again, I've never cut before...

...

My thoughts is... you really shouldn't have to worry too much about fat gain if you're really doing a clean bulk... 500 cals isn't a lot... but if you target your fat cells with well timed cardio - In the morning on an empty stomach & after a weightlyfting workout - I thynk you can bulk continuously whyle staying relatively lean...

The gym's body analyzer says I burn 1700 cals at rest... I'm currently eating 3700 cals a day... Since I started a new exercyse routine that I'ma follow for at least 12 weeks.. I'm gonna stay with my clean bulk for 6 weeks and get analyzed again... then I'm gonna cut for 6 weeks.. and get analyzed again... I'm styll doing HIIT cardio after my back, chest & arm days...

I'm in love with bulking... the machine says my bodyfat is at 22%... so it's just a lil experiment to see how much weight/fat I gain in 6 weeks with a "clean" bulk ... & how much I lose in 6 weeks with a cut... I'll decyde if I wanna cut or bulk at the end of the 12 weeks based on the mirror... & I'm in the Philippines... I'm constantly taking my shyrt off...

Peace..~G

Apootheosis · 08-31-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermuscles

Hey,
My goal in 6 months is to gain 20 lbs of muscle, and lose 16 lbs of fat. Now, normally, I am not in this kind of situation (It's either one or the other), so I'm not really sure what to do.

Do you think that I should Cut (Only like 100 cals under maintenance/day), or do a Clean Bulk (500 cals over maintenance/day)?

I'm just worried that if I clean bulk, I will put on fat, or stay at the same bodyfat %, and that if I cut, I will only be able to put on like 5 lbs of muscle in the 6 month period.

What would you suggest?

Thanks!
-MM

both options seem equally useless. if you gonna cut, do it efficiently and take it like a man. If you gona bulk, enjoy yourself. Not hard to do that unless your definition of clean is fat free cheeses, whey, chicken, and unflavored yogurt as your only sources of protein.

Apootheosis · 08-31-2005, 04:59 PM

Also, this is just a basic, probably useless theory ive kept in the back of my head-

if you bulk first, raising your BF% higher before you cut, it should be easier to cut it off, rather than staying at low BF levels and alternating between bulk and cut.

I think this, because fat people or anyone over 15% bf lose fat pretty fast, so the higher your BF %, the more easy-loss fat you will have. I think this applies for all stages of BF.

**schroeder** · 08-31-2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodgy 8

both options seem equally useless. if you gonna cut, do it efficiently and take it like a man. If you gona bulk, enjoy yourself. Not hard to do that unless your definition of clean is fat free cheeses, whey, chicken, and unflavored yogurt as your only sources of protein.

that's wrong....your body has the ability to store excess protein as fat. the idea that all excess protein is exctreted is merely a myth. the idea of a clean bulk with massive amounts of calories from protein will result in no fat gain is just plain wrong. put blunty, it is impossible to increase caloric intake above maint. for bulking without fat gain!

mistermuscles · 08-31-2005, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GameDayDog

Hahaha.. Then again, I've never cut before...

...

My thoughts is... you really shouldn't have to worry too much about fat gain if you're really doing a clean bulk... 500 cals isn't a lot... but if you target your fat cells with well timed cardio - In the morning on an empty stomach & after a weightlyfting workout - I thynk you can bulk continuously whyle staying relatively lean...

The gym's body analyzer says I burn 1700 cals at rest... I'm currently eating 3700 cals a day... Since I started a new exercyse routine that I'ma follow for at least 12 weeks.. I'm gonna stay with my clean bulk for 6 weeks and get analyzed again... then I'm gonna cut for 6 weeks.. and get analyzed again... I'm styll doing HIIT cardio after my back, chest & arm days...

I'm in love with bulking... the machine says my bodyfat is at 22%... so it's just a lil experiment to see how much weight/fat I gain in 6 weeks with a "clean" bulk ... & how much I lose in 6 weeks with a cut... I'll decyde if I wanna cut or bulk at the end of the 12 weeks based on the mirror... & I'm in the Philippines... I'm constantly taking my shyrt off...

Peace..~G

Haha, yeah, cutting is the worst.

Are you really at 22% bodyfat? Because I am at 18-19% bodyfat right now, and I look like I am holding a lot more fat then you are, at least from the pictures I have seen of you in your thread in the 30+ section. You looked to be closer to like 10-11% bodyfat.

GameDayDog · 08-31-2005, 09:52 PM

Man... I'm outraged at that stupid machine in the gym...

There's no way in hell I'm gonna say that thyng's accurate...

I took some pics tonyght, but my boy forgot to bring the flash card reader...

When he e-mails me the pics, I'll post 'em and let everyone see what 22% looks lyke...

That's part of my experiment and why I'm using the same machine to determine if I made any gains &/or losses... especially in weight & bodyfat...

I myght fall in love with cutting and keep going until I'm Dexter Jackson shredded... *D ... That would be cool.

Peace..~G

Apootheosis · 08-31-2005, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schroeder

that's wrong....your body has the ability to store excess protein as fat. the idea that all excess protein is exctreted is merely a myth. the idea of a clean bulk with massive amounts of calories from protein will result in no fat gain is just plain wrong. put blunty, it is impossible to increase caloric intake above maint. for bulking without fat gain!

uhm, yeah i wasnt saying that at all, or even supporting excessive amounts of protein. That was completely unrelated to the point of my post

**schroeder** · 08-31-2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodgy 8

uhm, yeah i wasnt saying that at all, or even supporting excessive amounts of protein. That was completely unrelated to the point of my post

it just seemed like you were implying that it was possible to cleanly bulk without fat gain by consuming low-fat, high protein foods

08-31-2005, 01:57 AM	#1
mistermuscles Amateur Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 84 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 4	Bulk or Cut? Hey, My goal in 6 months is to gain 20 lbs of muscle, and lose 16 lbs of fat. Now, normally, I am not in this kind of situation (It's either one or the other), so I'm not really sure what to do. Do you think that I should Cut (Only like 100 cals under maintenance/day), or do a Clean Bulk (500 cals over maintenance/day)? I'm just worried that if I clean bulk, I will put on fat, or stay at the same bodyfat %, and that if I cut, I will only be able to put on like 5 lbs of muscle in the 6 month period. What would you suggest? Thanks! -MM __________________ GameDayDog Is The MAN! IronMASS Kicks IronASS. :nosthumbs

08-31-2005, 02:11 AM	#4
Pioneer Moderator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,726 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 75	winter is coming, all out bulk, no need to cut since youre not going ot be ripping off your shirt much. __________________ "A Marine in battle fears disgracing himself by running. He fears not losing his life, but losing his honor. He may not be able to preserve his life, but he can always preserve his honor. That much is within his power... To fear disgrace but not death, to fear not duty but dereliction from duty -- this is courage." -FMFM 1-0 "Leading Marines" pg. 43 Drive on

08-31-2005, 02:44 AM	#9
EME Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,265 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 51	Hey Mistermuscles, The problem with bulking first and then cutting, when you want to get leaner AND bigger, is that you aren't going to get rid of the fat you have now while you are bulking. So, even if you pack on a lot of muscle during your bulk, you're eventually going to have to drop any fat you put on while you were bulking, plus you're still going to have to deal with the original fat you had in the first place. The cutting necessary to lose the new fat, and the original fat, may result in you losing a significant amount of your new muscle mass. For someone who truly wants to change their physique into a leaner and bigger version of their current self, I always recommend that you get rid of the fat you have now, and then work hard to add lean muscle while keeping the fat gain to a minimum. By getting lean first, then adding mass, the only fat you have to eventually take off is the small amount you may add during your mass building phase. You don't have to go back and deal with the original fat you had to begin with. This process may result in you being smaller than you want to be for a short period of time, while you are getting lean.. but in the long run you will truly end up with the physique you are looking for. - EME __________________ PhysiqueFXonline - Online Nutrition and Training with Michael and Kendra Elias: www.MichaelandKendra.com Team Molecular Nutrition Creative Director FAME Media Group / World Natural Sports Organization Editor-In-Chief FAME Magazine www.FAMEWorldTour.com

08-31-2005, 06:43 AM	#12
GameDayDog The Dawg Is Back!! Join Date: May 2005 Location: Doin Compound Movements 4 Scooby Snacks! Posts: 1,914 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 32	Cutting Sucks... Hahaha.. Then again, I've never cut before... ... My thoughts is... you really shouldn't have to worry too much about fat gain if you're really doing a clean bulk... 500 cals isn't a lot... but if you target your fat cells with well timed cardio - In the morning on an empty stomach & after a weightlyfting workout - I thynk you can bulk continuously whyle staying relatively lean... The gym's body analyzer says I burn 1700 cals at rest... I'm currently eating 3700 cals a day... Since I started a new exercyse routine that I'ma follow for at least 12 weeks.. I'm gonna stay with my clean bulk for 6 weeks and get analyzed again... then I'm gonna cut for 6 weeks.. and get analyzed again... I'm styll doing HIIT cardio after my back, chest & arm days... I'm in love with bulking... the machine says my bodyfat is at 22%... so it's just a lil experiment to see how much weight/fat I gain in 6 weeks with a "clean" bulk ... & how much I lose in 6 weeks with a cut... I'll decyde if I wanna cut or bulk at the end of the 12 weeks based on the mirror... & I'm in the Philippines... I'm constantly taking my shyrt off... Peace..~G __________________ I am Thee Alpha.. RaSP is Thee oMEGA.. Between the 2 of us - We have everythyng covered... I want to be bigger than all the humans!! "I'm sure I should be doing cardio too....but I don't run from anything...so why practice?" - 1stInDoor Goal - 200#'s 5/27/07 - 4/27/07 - 175# 3/27/07 - 167#

08-31-2005, 04:59 PM	#14
Apootheosis Pro Stature Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 625 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 10	Also, this is just a basic, probably useless theory ive kept in the back of my head- if you bulk first, raising your BF% higher before you cut, it should be easier to cut it off, rather than staying at low BF levels and alternating between bulk and cut. I think this, because fat people or anyone over 15% bf lose fat pretty fast, so the higher your BF %, the more easy-loss fat you will have. I think this applies for all stages of BF. __________________ lawlz

08-31-2005, 09:52 PM	#17
GameDayDog The Dawg Is Back!! Join Date: May 2005 Location: Doin Compound Movements 4 Scooby Snacks! Posts: 1,914 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 32	Don't Trust It... Man... I'm outraged at that stupid machine in the gym... There's no way in hell I'm gonna say that thyng's accurate... I took some pics tonyght, but my boy forgot to bring the flash card reader... When he e-mails me the pics, I'll post 'em and let everyone see what 22% looks lyke... That's part of my experiment and why I'm using the same machine to determine if I made any gains &/or losses... especially in weight & bodyfat... I myght fall in love with cutting and keep going until I'm Dexter Jackson shredded... *D ... That would be cool. Peace..~G __________________ I am Thee Alpha.. RaSP is Thee oMEGA.. Between the 2 of us - We have everythyng covered... I want to be bigger than all the humans!! "I'm sure I should be doing cardio too....but I don't run from anything...so why practice?" - 1stInDoor Goal - 200#'s 5/27/07 - 4/27/07 - 175# 3/27/07 - 167#