[Week 4's Topic] - Gloves, Lifting Straps, Lifting Belts, etc. - Page 2

bluehazard · 06-01-2005, 09:20 PM

I like chalk. I used to use gloves just to get a better grip, but chalk works so much better for me that that's all I use now. I have lifting straps, only thing I'm looking to use those for though is to hang for longer periods of time to stretch out my back.

~~Fresch~~ · 06-02-2005, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trick D

Yes I had a seat belt on, that is why I didn't die. I was in an 1984 Ford Ranger pick up truck. No airbags.

I realize that bulging discs don't actually have to have anything to do with a car wreck, unless you have pre mri, but it was conclusive from the lawsuit that it was caused by the accident. I had no lower back pain until point of car wreck, and the accident seemed to fit the injury pretty well.

Hmm...what was the "conclusive" proof?? I am sure it is the old simple cause and effect relationship being used here.

Problem is, by accepting a diagnosis of "bulging discs" you are not actually identifying what the true injury was..and hence what to do about it!

Testosterone · 06-02-2005, 01:18 PM

Belt: A must, I use it all the time to prevent injury. The question is not why would I use it, but why wouldn't I really.

Straps: I have never used them before. I am considering using them to continue improving my deadlift (I am at the point where my grip fails but my back is fine), while I work specifically on my supporting grip in the future. I am currently on a crush only grip training program (KTA) so I am unable to work my supporting grip, and therefore it suffers and then my deadlift suffers. In a year or so I will hopefully begin training supporting grip to bring it up to par, and in the meantime I might begin using straps to continue increasing the deadlift. But, I only approve of straps in a situation exactly like mine. I don't think there would be any other reason to wear straps, so otherwise I disapprove of them.

Gloves: I never wanted to use them. I disliked having to, because I wanted to make my skin tougher. Alas, this did not work out so well. The skin on my hands is rough, calloused, and extremely thick. My girl doesn't like it, so I decided to start using gloves a few days ago. I haven't seen any changes yet, but it might still be too soon.

**powerman2000** · 06-02-2005, 10:55 PM

What does everybody use for footwear in the gym?

I wear Otomix shoes. If nobody knows what they look like, they are similar to a wrestling shoe only a little heavier with a slightly thicker sole.

When I was a comp PLer I wore a pair of 'Puma' squating shoes and for DLs I wore a pair of 'Puma' wrestling shoes. For BP I just wore tennis shoes.

~~Fresch~~ · 06-02-2005, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STRENGTH

Belt: A must, I use it all the time to prevent injury. The question is not why would I use it, but why wouldn't I really.

No, the question is why WOULD you use one, when the evidence is there to show that they may CAUSE injury, and are less effective than correct utilisation of core strength as a method of stabilising/supporting the lumbar area.

**powerman2000** · 06-02-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

No, the question is why WOULD you use one, when the evidence is there to show that they may CAUSE injury, and are less effective than correct utilisation of core strength as a method of stabilising/supporting the lumbar area.

Dude, I am an old PLer. I probably have more "core" strength than almost anyone here. I'd like to see those case studies that show where using a belt has caused injuries. That is ridiculous!

My lower abs and the erectors in my back are too thick to be appealing BECAUSE I wore a PL belt for many years. When you wear a PL belt you will actually build better core strength for 2 reasons. First, you will push against the belt with your core muscles and because of that resistance you build muscle. Sound familiar with the resistance part being a cause of muscle growth?

I'm just tired of this myth that has become so popular about how you should not wear a belt. Secondly, by wearing a proper belt it will enable you to lift heavier with much less risk of injury and that will also improve one's core strength.

Sorry about the rant, but I just couldn't take it anymore. A belt gives you something to push against with your abs. Its not a crutch. It is a tool. Without a belt there is nothing to push against. Since when did pushing with your muscles hinder you instead of help you?

Recently, in the last 6 months, I've done a 405 lb DL without a belt and it felt unstable and dangerous. With a belt I did a 545 lb DL and I felt no threat of injury compared to the lighter DL without a belt. There is no way that anyone can convince me that anybody is better off doing much lighter lifts and all the while risking injury by not using a belt. Especially when it also won't cause more core strength growth, but actually less. Same thing goes for Squats. One last note, I don't advocate wearing your belt during every minute of every workout, but don't tell me a belt is bad for you.

BTW, last night I did 12 reps of SLDL without a belt and no straps using 125 lb DBs. Now that is core strength baby! The only reason I didn't use more weight is because the 125s are the biggest DBs my gym has to offer me. Did I also mention that I'll be 41 years old next Saturday?

Actual Size · 06-02-2005, 11:48 PM

Outstanding post. I now know that I need to use the belt!

**powerman2000** · 06-03-2005, 03:10 AM

~~Fresch~~ · 06-03-2005, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Dude, I am an old PLer. I probably have more "core" strength than almost anyone here. I'd like to see those case studies that show where using a belt has caused injuries. That is ridiculous!

My lower abs and the erectors in my back are too thick to be appealing BECAUSE I wore a PL belt for many years. When you wear a PL belt you will actually build better core strength for 2 reasons. First, you will push against the belt with your core muscles and because of that resistance you build muscle. Sound familiar with the resistance part being a cause of muscle growth?

I'm just tired of this myth that has become so popular about how you should not wear a belt. Secondly, by wearing a proper belt it will enable you to lift heavier with much less risk of injury and that will also improve one's core strength.

Sorry about the rant, but I just couldn't take it anymore. A belt gives you something to push against with your abs. Its not a crutch. It is a tool. Without a belt there is nothing to push against. Since when did pushing with your muscles hinder you instead of help you?

Recently, in the last 6 months, I've done a 405 lb DL without a belt and it felt unstable and dangerous. With a belt I did a 545 lb DL and I felt no threat of injury compared to the lighter DL without a belt. There is no way that anyone can convince me that anybody is better off doing much lighter lifts and all the while risking injury by not using a belt. Especially when it also won't cause more core strength growth, but actually less. Same thing goes for Squats. One last note, I don't advocate wearing your belt during every minute of every workout, but don't tell me a belt is bad for you.

BTW, last night I did 12 reps of SLDL without a belt and no straps using 125 lb DBs. Now that is core strength baby! The only reason I didn't use more weight is because the 125s are the biggest DBs my gym has to offer me. Did I also mention that I'll be 41 years old next Saturday?

The muscle most responsible for core stability is the transversus abdominis. When this muscle contracts, it decreases the girth, not increases it: if you are pushing outwards, you are not using the transverse abdominus at all. Hence, you theory fails that the belt strengthens the core by providing resistance for the core muscles to push against.

Studies have also shown that belts immobilise the L5 and L5 segments of the lumbar spine: this means that any load on the lumbar spine is now increased over the free lumber levels, L1-3. Also, a pivot point exists between the immobilised L5/4 and the free L1-3 segments: this point can be subject to extreme loads and a possible site of injury.

The core system provides support to the thoraco and lumbar spines, making the whole section more stable, not just two levels. Wearing a belt can interfere with the bodies appreciation of load and, hence, the correct activation of the core system.

Hence, a better approach is to not use belts, and instead to learn to properly activate and strengthen the core system.

Do belts help you lift more? Yes, probably by increasing intra-abdominal pressure and making the person feel more secure. Is it safer to use belts? No, because without a belt, you properly learn to use core strength, and do not remove the body's feedback systems.

**spytech** · 06-03-2005, 03:26 AM

Thank you PM2k and Fresch for an interesting debate here.

PM2k - you stated that belts build core strength better - then why were you unstable at 405 without a belt, but stable at 545 with a belt??

To me, that screams out that your core is simply not able to generate the same stability and strength that you get from it with a belt. Now, you may not have a weak core (how could you, judging by your lifts), but it may be an example of your core not being able to function as effectively without the belt added into the equation. Having used a belt for your lifts so long, your body probably has grown to depend on it.

I have seen countless guys in the gym (and online that I know) wearing belts for every-single-rep of their squats and deads - when I get them to try the same lift with much less weight and without a belt - forget about it - they are usually very uncomfortable (and unsafe). Again, this may not be a sign of a weak core, but a core simply inexperienced in working "solo" without the belt.

I will not say a belt is bad for you - it is an invaluable saftey tool for those max-outs, but I would not advocate them being used as crutches in training to get better lifts. Maybe this will not cause your core to be 'weak', as I stated earlier, but evidence and observation definitely shows that it may cause your core to be less effective than it could be on its own.

BTW, great lifts, you old man

**powerman2000** · 06-03-2005, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

The muscle most responsible for core stability is the transversus abdominis. When this muscle contracts, it decreases the girth, not increases it: if you are pushing outwards, you are not using the transverse abdominus at all. Hence, you theory fails that the belt strengthens the core by providing resistance for the core muscles to push against.

Studies have also shown that belts immobilise the L5 and L5 segments of the lumbar spine: this means that any load on the lumbar spine is now increased over the free lumber levels, L1-3. Also, a pivot point exists between the immobilised L5/4 and the free L1-3 segments: this point can be subject to extreme loads and a possible site of injury.

The core system provides support to the thoraco and lumbar spines, making the whole section more stable, not just two levels. Wearing a belt can interfere with the bodies appreciation of load and, hence, the correct activation of the core system.

Hence, a better approach is to not use belts, and instead to learn to properly activate and strengthen the core system.

Do belts help you lift more? Yes, probably by increasing intra-abdominal pressure and making the person feel more secure. Is it safer to use belts? No, because without a belt, you properly learn to use core strength, and do not remove the body's feedback systems.

You know what, that all sounds real impressive and scientific, but I have actual experience, with and without belts. Over 20 years of it boys. My theory in not wrong!!! When you pull that belt tight I can feel all the muscles around my entire waist pushing out on the belt. Your rhetoric doesn't amount to anything compared with experience. Perhaps we are simply using different definitions of what core strength is anyway. I define it as all of the supporting muscles that surround your entire waist. According to what you've said I should have lousy core strength since I've used a PL belt for decades and a belt is a crutch and can cause injury. So why then am I able to do a 405 lb DL without a belt on any given day at my age? Answer, because I've developed very good core strength as I've defined it previously, thats why. Never had a serious back injury either. Amazing, isn't it?

**spytech** · 06-03-2005, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

When you pull that belt tight I can feel all the muscles around my entire waist pushing out on the belt. Your rhetoric doesn't amount to anything compared with experience.

I agree with you on this one PM, but, to play devil's advocate, many lifters (including lots of experienced PL'ers) will argue the opposite way.

Here is a pretty good read on this issue:
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=175abs

Personally, sucking air into my gut and pushing my abs out makes my core feel more stablized and 'able', as opposed to contracting my abdominals and keeping them tensed. This 'pushing the gut out' is what a belt mimics, and it obviously works for stability

Testosterone · 06-03-2005, 05:27 AM

Powerman2000, you took the words out of my mouth.

Shilling · 06-03-2005, 05:50 AM

There are some guys that are just basically completely raw lifters. No belts, shirts, gloves, anything of the sort. That's how I want to be when I'm putting up huge numbers. I don't like crutches. I don't like relying on something else.

**powerman2000** · 06-03-2005, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shilling

There are some guys that are just basically completely raw lifters. No belts, shirts, gloves, anything of the sort. That's how I want to be when I'm putting up huge numbers. I don't like crutches. I don't like relying on something else.

You'll never put up huge numbers without a belt or other "crutches".

Testosterone · 06-03-2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerman2000

You'll never put up huge numbers without a belt or other "crutches".

Im a raw lifter. I don't like shirts or suits. I don't think you are actually lifting the weight when you are wearing a shirt or suit, simply because you can't do it without them. But belts and gloves are an entirely different matter.

**powerman2000** · 06-03-2005, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STRENGTH

Im a raw lifter. I don't like shirts or suits. I don't think you are actually lifting the weight when you are wearing a shirt or suit, simply because you can't do it without them. But belts and gloves are an entirely different matter.

I don't like shirts either, only because I couldn't get comfortable lifting in one. If you are planning on competing against others who are wearing suits and the like and you want to lift 'raw', then be prepared to get your butt kicked!

06-02-2005, 01:18 PM	#33
Testosterone Pro Stature Join Date: May 2005 Location: Probably eating oatmeal Posts: 235 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 6	Belt: A must, I use it all the time to prevent injury. The question is not why would I use it, but why wouldn't I really. Straps: I have never used them before. I am considering using them to continue improving my deadlift (I am at the point where my grip fails but my back is fine), while I work specifically on my supporting grip in the future. I am currently on a crush only grip training program (KTA) so I am unable to work my supporting grip, and therefore it suffers and then my deadlift suffers. In a year or so I will hopefully begin training supporting grip to bring it up to par, and in the meantime I might begin using straps to continue increasing the deadlift. But, I only approve of straps in a situation exactly like mine. I don't think there would be any other reason to wear straps, so otherwise I disapprove of them. Gloves: I never wanted to use them. I disliked having to, because I wanted to make my skin tougher. Alas, this did not work out so well. The skin on my hands is rough, calloused, and extremely thick. My girl doesn't like it, so I decided to start using gloves a few days ago. I haven't seen any changes yet, but it might still be too soon. __________________ Formerly S.C.

06-02-2005, 10:55 PM	#34
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,281 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 199	What does everybody use for footwear in the gym? I wear Otomix shoes. If nobody knows what they look like, they are similar to a wrestling shoe only a little heavier with a slightly thicker sole. When I was a comp PLer I wore a pair of 'Puma' squating shoes and for DLs I wore a pair of 'Puma' wrestling shoes. For BP I just wore tennis shoes. __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

06-02-2005, 11:48 PM	#37
Actual Size IronMass Donator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: North West Indiana Posts: 203 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 6	Outstanding post. I now know that I need to use the belt! __________________ Everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? John 11:26 God Loves You, but do you Love HIM???????

06-03-2005, 03:10 AM	#38
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,281 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 199	__________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

06-03-2005, 03:26 AM	#40
spytech Getting Stronger Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,434 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 36	Thank you PM2k and Fresch for an interesting debate here. PM2k - you stated that belts build core strength better - then why were you unstable at 405 without a belt, but stable at 545 with a belt?? To me, that screams out that your core is simply not able to generate the same stability and strength that you get from it with a belt. Now, you may not have a weak core (how could you, judging by your lifts), but it may be an example of your core not being able to function as effectively without the belt added into the equation. Having used a belt for your lifts so long, your body probably has grown to depend on it. I have seen countless guys in the gym (and online that I know) wearing belts for every-single-rep of their squats and deads - when I get them to try the same lift with much less weight and without a belt - forget about it - they are usually very uncomfortable (and unsafe). Again, this may not be a sign of a weak core, but a core simply inexperienced in working "solo" without the belt. I will not say a belt is bad for you - it is an invaluable saftey tool for those max-outs, but I would not advocate them being used as crutches in training to get better lifts. Maybe this will not cause your core to be 'weak', as I stated earlier, but evidence and observation definitely shows that it may cause your core to be less effective than it could be on its own. BTW, great lifts, you old man __________________ 5'10" - 230 @ 8-9% Status: Getting stronger... 692d/625s Create your own FREE Workout Journal at http://www.strengthandbody.com/ My Lifting Vids Spytech SHSHT: http://www.strengthandbody.com/shsht.html Spytech SHWSB: http://www.strengthandbody.com/shwsb.html

06-01-2005, 09:20 PM	#31
bluehazard www.whyquit.com Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 255 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 8	I like chalk. I used to use gloves just to get a better grip, but chalk works so much better for me that that's all I use now. I have lifting straps, only thing I'm looking to use those for though is to hang for longer periods of time to stretch out my back.

06-03-2005, 05:27 AM	#43
Testosterone Pro Stature Join Date: May 2005 Location: Probably eating oatmeal Posts: 235 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 6	Powerman2000, you took the words out of my mouth. __________________ Formerly S.C.

06-03-2005, 05:50 AM	#44
Shilling Amateur Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 82 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 4	There are some guys that are just basically completely raw lifters. No belts, shirts, gloves, anything of the sort. That's how I want to be when I'm putting up huge numbers. I don't like crutches. I don't like relying on something else.