DOMS!!!

**DarkFalcon** · 06-22-2005, 02:31 AM

OK I know I'm not the only old fart that get's nice and sore a day or two after banging out an intense session. Any tricks, supp's, or special stretches that you've found really reduce the immobility and pain?

Massman · 06-22-2005, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFalcon

OK I know I'm not the only old fart that get's nice and sore a day or two after banging out an intense session. Any tricks, supp's, or special stretches that you've found really reduce the immobility and pain?

Call me stupid or whatever but I Love that sore feeling. Stretching is a must to really feel it. I rarely get that sore though

**DarkFalcon** · 06-22-2005, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Massman

Call me stupid or whatever but I Love that sore feeling. Stretching is a must to really feel it. I rarely get that sore though

I don't mind a bit of a soreness but sometimes it's almost crippling and it interfers with my next workout. You must be young still.

**powerman2000** · 06-22-2005, 10:02 AM

Hey DF, its called active recovery. To get rid of your lactic acid you need to engage in some form of light aerobic activity.

Here is a long and detailed explanation of how it works. http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/activerecovery.php

Dan · 06-22-2005, 12:29 PM

Good post powerman

Capt. America · 06-22-2005, 03:54 PM

I always work out the next day doing different body parts or go on a nice 4 mile run. I think the idea is to do SOMETHING to get the blood flowing, oxygenate the muscles and get the heart pumpin'. I'll be 50 next month and still I really enjoy muscle soreness, it my body tellin' me that I did something!

pammiejoe6 · 08-09-2005, 06:27 PM

i also always heard if you are EXTREMELY sore its your body's way of saying i need more protein and carbs....opinions on this?

pammiejoe6 · 08-09-2005, 06:33 PM

hey i just read this article what do you think of this guys opinion?

pammiejoe6 · 08-09-2005, 06:37 PM

Delayed onset muscle soreness
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS) is the pain or discomfort often felt 24 to 74 hours after exercising and subsides generally within 2 to 3 days. Once thought to be caused by lactic acid buildup, a more recent theory is that it is caused by tiny tears in the muscle fibres caused by eccentric movements, or unaccustomed training levels.

More recent research (Ji-Guo Yu) claims that DOMS is not caused by the pain from damaged muscle cells, but from the reinforcement process. The muscle responds to training by reinforcing itself up to and above the previous strength by adding new sarcomers - the segments in the muscle fibrils. This reinforcement process causes the cells to swell, and put pressure on to nerves and arteries, causing the DOMS. Training does not make an existing DOMS worse, because the reinforcement process is already underway.

pammiejoe6 · 08-09-2005, 06:42 PM

hey ya'll check out this file has a lot of great info in it too...

GameDayDog · 08-09-2005, 08:51 PM

Great article Pammie J...

I was gonna mention that new research shows that DOMS and Lactic Acid aren't related anymore... but that's the fyrst I've heard about the reinforcement process...

See.. thanks to great PINK MEMBERS...

... there's alwayz somethyng to learn...

I used to take an extra rest day if I was really sore... but now I'll continue to go for it... REINFORCE DAYUMMIT!!!!

I have to share that I found thys whyle reading one of my MuscleMag International Magazines... There's an entire article on DOMS... April 2005 - pgs 256 - 259 ... Thys is part of a four piece WORKOUT set... you can fynd out details on the syte.. but here's the Post Workout Cream..

http://lexskin.com/workoutrub.htm

Peace..~G

**DarkFalcon** · 08-10-2005, 08:20 AM

Thanks for the added info guys, I'll read through it all tomorrow. :nosthumbs

RealFantasy · 08-15-2005, 02:50 PM

YOU HAVE A GREAT DAY!

Brenda

pammiejoe6 · 08-21-2005, 05:17 AM

wanted to add to this DOMS thread as today i was directed to a new study...

the most recent information indicates that DOMS appears to be more related to inflammation of connective tissue, not muscle tears. It has no real relevance to growth, nor does it indicate per se that the muscle got the greatest workout. However, damage to connective tissue can take weeks to repair and it's incredibly painful - not something you'd want to experience. Seeing as protein synthesis peaks and finishes within 36-48 hours after training, resting that muscle group makes sense - especially if you're new to lifting and not 100% sure on your form.

J Physiol. 2004 May 1;556(Pt 3):983-1000. Epub 2004 Feb 6. Related Articles, Links
Leukocytes, cytokines, growth factors and hormones in human skeletal muscle and blood after uphill or downhill running.

Malm C, Sjodin TL, Sjoberg B, Lenkei R, Renstrom P, Lundberg IE, Ekblom B.
Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden. Christer.malm@anatomy.umu.se

Muscular adaptation to physical exercise has previously been described as a repair process following tissue damage. Recently, evidence has been published to question this hypothesis. The purpose of this study was to investigate inflammatory processes in human skeletal muscle and epimysium after acute physical exercise with large eccentric components. Three groups of subjects (n= 19) performed 45 min treadmill running at either 4 deg (n= 5) or 8 deg (n= 9) downhill or 4 deg uphill (n= 5) and one group served as control (n= 9). One biopsy was taken from each subject 48 h post exercise. Blood samples were taken up to 7 days post exercise. Compared to the control group, none of the markers of inflammation in muscle and epimysium samples was different in any exercised group. Only subjects in the Downhill groups experienced delayed onset of muscle soreness (DOMS) and increased serum creatine kinase activity (CK). The detected levels of immunohistochemical markers for T cells (CD3), granulocytes (CD11b), leukaemia inhibitory factor (LIF) and hypoxia-inducible factor 1beta (HIF-1beta) were greater in epimysium from exercised subjects with DOMS ratings >3 (0-10 scale) compared to exercised subjects without DOMS but not higher than controls. Eccentric physical exercise (downhill running) did not result in skeletal muscle inflammation 48 h post exercise, despite DOMS and increased CK. It is suggested that exercise can induce DOMS by activating inflammatory factors present in the epimysium before exercise. Repeated physical training may alter the content of inflammatory factors in the epimysium and thus reduce DOMS.

Histochem Cell Biol. 2002 Jul;118(1):29-34. Epub 2002 Jun 18. Related Articles, Links

Eccentric contractions leading to DOMS do not cause loss of desmin nor fibre necrosis in human muscle.
Yu JG, Malm C, Thornell LE.
Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section for Anatomy, Umea University, 901 87 Umea, Sweden.

High force eccentric muscle contractions can result in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), prolonged loss of muscle strength, decreased range of motion, muscle swelling and an increase of muscle proteins in the blood. At the ultrastructural level Z-line streaming and myofibrillar disruptions have been taken as evidence for muscle damage. In animal models of eccentric exercise-induced injury, disruption of the cytoskeleton and the sarcolemma of muscle fibres occurs within the first hour after the exercise, since a rapid loss of staining of desmin, a cytoskeletal protein, and the presence of fibronectin, a plasma and extracellular protein, are observed within the muscle fibres. In the present study, biopsies from subjects who had performed different eccentric exercises and had developed DOMS were examined. Our aim was to determine whether eccentric exercise leading to DOMS causes sarcolemmal disruption and loss of desmin in humans. Our study shows that even though the subjects had DOMS, muscle fibres had neither lost staining for desmin nor contained plasma fibronectin. This study therefore does not support previous conclusions that there is muscle fibre degeneration and necrosis in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise leading to DOMS. Our data are in agreement with the recent findings that there is no inflammatory response in skeletal muscle following eccentric exercise in humans. In combination, these findings should stimulate the search for other mechanisms explaining the functional and structural alterations in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise.

pammiejoe6 · 08-21-2005, 05:22 AM

and yet a little more on DOMS

06-22-2005, 02:31 AM	#1
DarkFalcon I've got a RAGING clue! Join Date: May 2005 Location: dnyc99's cleaning staff Posts: 11,511 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 299	DOMS!!! OK I know I'm not the only old fart that get's nice and sore a day or two after banging out an intense session. Any tricks, supp's, or special stretches that you've found really reduce the immobility and pain?

06-22-2005, 10:02 AM	#4
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,188 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 202	Hey DF, its called active recovery. To get rid of your lactic acid you need to engage in some form of light aerobic activity. Here is a long and detailed explanation of how it works. http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/activerecovery.php __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

06-22-2005, 03:54 PM	#6
Capt. America Amateur Join Date: May 2005 Location: Pgh, Pa. Posts: 32 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	I always work out the next day doing different body parts or go on a nice 4 mile run. I think the idea is to do SOMETHING to get the blood flowing, oxygenate the muscles and get the heart pumpin'. I'll be 50 next month and still I really enjoy muscle soreness, it my body tellin' me that I did something! __________________ A coward dies many deaths, a Soldier dies once!

08-09-2005, 08:51 PM	#11
GameDayDog The Dawg Is Back!! Join Date: May 2005 Location: Doin Compound Movements 4 Scooby Snacks! Posts: 1,914 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 32	Beat Me To It... Great article Pammie J... I was gonna mention that new research shows that DOMS and Lactic Acid aren't related anymore... but that's the fyrst I've heard about the reinforcement process... See.. thanks to great PINK MEMBERS... ... there's alwayz somethyng to learn... I used to take an extra rest day if I was really sore... but now I'll continue to go for it... REINFORCE DAYUMMIT!!!! I have to share that I found thys whyle reading one of my MuscleMag International Magazines... There's an entire article on DOMS... April 2005 - pgs 256 - 259 ... Thys is part of a four piece WORKOUT set... you can fynd out details on the syte.. but here's the Post Workout Cream.. http://lexskin.com/workoutrub.htm Peace..~G __________________ I am Thee Alpha.. RaSP is Thee oMEGA.. Between the 2 of us - We have everythyng covered... I want to be bigger than all the humans!! "I'm sure I should be doing cardio too....but I don't run from anything...so why practice?" - 1stInDoor Goal - 200#'s 5/27/07 - 4/27/07 - 175# 3/27/07 - 167#

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06-22-2005, 12:29 PM	#5
Dan Unpaid Trash Collector Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,725 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 26	Good post powerman

08-09-2005, 06:27 PM	#7
pammiejoe6 Pink Members Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south texas Posts: 4,174 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 85	i also always heard if you are EXTREMELY sore its your body's way of saying i need more protein and carbs....opinions on this?

08-09-2005, 06:33 PM	#8
pammiejoe6 Pink Members Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south texas Posts: 4,174 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 85	hey i just read this article what do you think of this guys opinion?

08-09-2005, 06:37 PM	#9
pammiejoe6 Pink Members Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south texas Posts: 4,174 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 85	Delayed onset muscle soreness From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS) is the pain or discomfort often felt 24 to 74 hours after exercising and subsides generally within 2 to 3 days. Once thought to be caused by lactic acid buildup, a more recent theory is that it is caused by tiny tears in the muscle fibres caused by eccentric movements, or unaccustomed training levels. More recent research (Ji-Guo Yu) claims that DOMS is not caused by the pain from damaged muscle cells, but from the reinforcement process. The muscle responds to training by reinforcing itself up to and above the previous strength by adding new sarcomers - the segments in the muscle fibrils. This reinforcement process causes the cells to swell, and put pressure on to nerves and arteries, causing the DOMS. Training does not make an existing DOMS worse, because the reinforcement process is already underway.

08-09-2005, 06:42 PM	#10
pammiejoe6 Pink Members Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south texas Posts: 4,174 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 85	hey ya'll check out this file has a lot of great info in it too...

08-10-2005, 08:20 AM	#12
DarkFalcon I've got a RAGING clue! Join Date: May 2005 Location: dnyc99's cleaning staff Posts: 11,511 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 299	Thanks for the added info guys, I'll read through it all tomorrow. :nosthumbs

08-15-2005, 02:50 PM	#13
RealFantasy Pro Stature Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 684 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 10	YOU HAVE A GREAT DAY! Brenda

08-21-2005, 05:17 AM	#14
pammiejoe6 Pink Members Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south texas Posts: 4,174 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 85	wanted to add to this DOMS thread as today i was directed to a new study... the most recent information indicates that DOMS appears to be more related to inflammation of connective tissue, not muscle tears. It has no real relevance to growth, nor does it indicate per se that the muscle got the greatest workout. However, damage to connective tissue can take weeks to repair and it's incredibly painful - not something you'd want to experience. Seeing as protein synthesis peaks and finishes within 36-48 hours after training, resting that muscle group makes sense - especially if you're new to lifting and not 100% sure on your form. J Physiol. 2004 May 1;556(Pt 3):983-1000. Epub 2004 Feb 6. Related Articles, Links Leukocytes, cytokines, growth factors and hormones in human skeletal muscle and blood after uphill or downhill running. Malm C, Sjodin TL, Sjoberg B, Lenkei R, Renstrom P, Lundberg IE, Ekblom B. Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden. Christer.malm@anatomy.umu.se Muscular adaptation to physical exercise has previously been described as a repair process following tissue damage. Recently, evidence has been published to question this hypothesis. The purpose of this study was to investigate inflammatory processes in human skeletal muscle and epimysium after acute physical exercise with large eccentric components. Three groups of subjects (n= 19) performed 45 min treadmill running at either 4 deg (n= 5) or 8 deg (n= 9) downhill or 4 deg uphill (n= 5) and one group served as control (n= 9). One biopsy was taken from each subject 48 h post exercise. Blood samples were taken up to 7 days post exercise. Compared to the control group, none of the markers of inflammation in muscle and epimysium samples was different in any exercised group. Only subjects in the Downhill groups experienced delayed onset of muscle soreness (DOMS) and increased serum creatine kinase activity (CK). The detected levels of immunohistochemical markers for T cells (CD3), granulocytes (CD11b), leukaemia inhibitory factor (LIF) and hypoxia-inducible factor 1beta (HIF-1beta) were greater in epimysium from exercised subjects with DOMS ratings >3 (0-10 scale) compared to exercised subjects without DOMS but not higher than controls. Eccentric physical exercise (downhill running) did not result in skeletal muscle inflammation 48 h post exercise, despite DOMS and increased CK. It is suggested that exercise can induce DOMS by activating inflammatory factors present in the epimysium before exercise. Repeated physical training may alter the content of inflammatory factors in the epimysium and thus reduce DOMS. Histochem Cell Biol. 2002 Jul;118(1):29-34. Epub 2002 Jun 18. Related Articles, Links Eccentric contractions leading to DOMS do not cause loss of desmin nor fibre necrosis in human muscle. Yu JG, Malm C, Thornell LE. Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section for Anatomy, Umea University, 901 87 Umea, Sweden. High force eccentric muscle contractions can result in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), prolonged loss of muscle strength, decreased range of motion, muscle swelling and an increase of muscle proteins in the blood. At the ultrastructural level Z-line streaming and myofibrillar disruptions have been taken as evidence for muscle damage. In animal models of eccentric exercise-induced injury, disruption of the cytoskeleton and the sarcolemma of muscle fibres occurs within the first hour after the exercise, since a rapid loss of staining of desmin, a cytoskeletal protein, and the presence of fibronectin, a plasma and extracellular protein, are observed within the muscle fibres. In the present study, biopsies from subjects who had performed different eccentric exercises and had developed DOMS were examined. Our aim was to determine whether eccentric exercise leading to DOMS causes sarcolemmal disruption and loss of desmin in humans. Our study shows that even though the subjects had DOMS, muscle fibres had neither lost staining for desmin nor contained plasma fibronectin. This study therefore does not support previous conclusions that there is muscle fibre degeneration and necrosis in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise leading to DOMS. Our data are in agreement with the recent findings that there is no inflammatory response in skeletal muscle following eccentric exercise in humans. In combination, these findings should stimulate the search for other mechanisms explaining the functional and structural alterations in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise.

08-21-2005, 05:22 AM	#15
pammiejoe6 Pink Members Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south texas Posts: 4,174 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 85	and yet a little more on DOMS