toughnuts

I just copied this from a Jimpaul post at intensemuscle......

Random thoughts from CFP
Alot of bodybuilding is deductional thinking and common sense. But people never use it to their advantage. Heres some things to ponder and think out

a)Well why dont pros train this way? Because pros read the magazines and all routines are descended from what Arnold and forefather bodybuilders did without rhyme or reason. The biggest dagger in the back of bodybuilders is overenthusiasm and obsession. People want to get big so badly that they feel they have to do 20 sets per bodypart and 7 exercises per bodypart to leave no stone uncovered. And its a natural thought. Hard work should equal results right? Yea it does in a smart planned out way. Obviously I proved to myself long ago that minimal work sets with very heavy weight make me grow and the people on this thread have obviously proved it to themselves and everyone around them. It seems to me that the people on this forum are gaining muscle mass at a far advanced rate and much faster than people in other forums online. So if your growing faster doing 2 straight sets of squats for legs or rest pausing a set of miliatary shoulder presses for 11-15RP, what the heck is happening to people doing 5 sets of squats, 5 sets of leg presses, 4 sets of hacks, and 3 sets of leg extensions in their leg workouts? They are growing slower than the guys in this forum with 16 extra sets per bodypart? Seems like a waste of time and effort to me. Ive had 2 guys that i trained online late last year and early this year who read some articles in "Flex" or whatever and went back to "Volume training" --all gains stopped and they havent gotten anywhere since. They have both come back to me of late asking me to help them again. Help what? My answer to both of them was "Ive onlinetrained about 40 guys since then that have flown right past you -- you are in their rear view mirror" And thats not counting the guys on this thread that dont post or I dont personally train-but I get the thank you emails and Ill guesstimate its been about 750 more now. Im not trying to give myself a pat on the back here I just want people to think this stuff out

b)How many powerlifters do you know? Now out of all those powerlifters how many are not thickly muscled and dense? (Im talking about powerlifters not curbing back food intake to stay in a light weight class)--How many people trying to be bodybuilders do you know? How many actually look like bodybuilders? Im talking if you went in your gym tonite and scanned the whole crowd and they were walking by you on the street, how many would register in your mind "no doubt that guys a bodybuilder!"
Some years back I wanted a gym with heavy dumbells for dumbell presses and found this Powerlifting gym that was hardcore as hell and had dumbells that went up to 160lbs. They had a powerlifting team and it was Kazmiers old stomping grounds. One thing that stuck with me was the ratio of monsters in that place. There were a token few powerlifters that were in the light weight classes that werent that big and understandabley because they had to keep in those classes but at least 7 out of every 10 guys in this place were thick and alot of them were in the 220 to 345lb range. Ill go into my gym tonite and Ill see 300 people training during my time there and 2-5 guys who if I saw them on the street I would know they were bodybuilders. And those 2-5 guys will usually be very heavy training people. Think of that ratio. Thats ridiculous but if you think out the reasons why it will be clear to you (see above).

c) The next time you read or hear a pro say "Im using blood volume pump training now and my gains have been awesome"-- think about it. Has that pro gotten any larger in the last 5 years? Why has that pro forgotten the training that propelled him to his pro card which was very heavy weights and trying to be the big dog in the gym with poundages? Ronnie doesnt seem like he forgot and showed up onstage at 285lbs this year. Dorian sure didnt forget. But I see 100's of pro's who after they get their pro card start espousing "go by feel", "quality muscle with isolation movements", "blood pump", "dumbell kickbacks for shape" etc etc etc bullshit etc. WHAT?!?!?! Noone and I mean noone likes to think that their training that they are doing now isnt the most condusive to building muscle mass but christ why brainwash yourself when you can just think back to what got you there in the first place? I can see if pros dont want to get injured at that stage of your career but then the remedy for that is raise your rep range from 4-8 to maybe a safer range 11-15 and still train heavy as you can.

d)You usually gain alot of size in your first two years of lifting and then it stagnates. Reason? You also gain a ton of strength in your first 2 years of lifting and then it plateaus. Whats the next time that you make incredibly rapid gains in size? When you take super supplements. Reason? Your strength goes thru the roof again and your body must adapt. Well if your getting dramatically larger at these two junctures when you are rapidly gaining strength is it that hard to figure out that you should be driving your ass to be the absolutely strongest bodybuilder that your genetics can allow. People's excuses are "well I dont want to get hurt, I dont want to ruin my joints" Well strict form coupled with a higher rep range but still driving yourself to be incredibly strong will get you there safely also if thats the case-maybe slightly slower but you give some to get some.

e) People always talk about "changing up" and "keeping the body offbalance", "variety" and never doing the same workout twice. Huh? What is there 7000 different kind of Quad exercises that I dont know about? No theres about 4-5 that are condusive to building muscle mass. How many productive different chest exercises are there? Infinity? No theres about 8-10 or so (if that). So you are going to be repeating exercises often thruout the year anyway. So if April 1st you squat and do 315 x 10 and then 4 weeks later "after changing up to keep the body off balance--LOL" you do squats again and do 295 x 11 or 315 x 10 again have you gained anything? **** no! Three times later after doing different leg workouts and your still squatting 315lbs or so for around the same reps you havent progressed yourself anywhere! Grab a logbook, get an exercise rotation going, hammer an exercise into oblivion until you cannot get stronger on it and then change up and go to a new exercise and do the same thing. Many people look at a machine like its the candyass way to lift compared to free weights. I take a machine and manhandle it/destroy it. I train on it until i beat the weighstack and then I chain a dumbell to it and go as far up the dumbell rack as I can go. My gym managers probaly dont like it but I havent had anything said to me yet so until then.... Its just a mindset. People look at a pecdeck machine and think of an isolation machine. I look at a pecdeck and think "Im going to turn that into a compound movement and destroy that thing" -that means put your hands on the pads and push with your hands instead of your elbows and turn that thing into a power press/flye machine --and dominate that machine

f)Im hungry--time to eat
I have seen alot of bodybuilders hate creatine and say it doesnt work for crap. I love creatine and the effects it has especially for my methods which is all about strength accumalation at the fastest rate possible. The downside is it makes your stomach stick out for about 4 hours after digesting a larger dose of it, it can screw up your appetite if taken daily, and it definitely smooths many people out. I see a buck 75 guys who are pretty ripped that hate creatine because 2 weeks later they weigh 182lbs or so but have smoothed out, so they think it sucks. They are not seeing the longterm of it though. I think its a neccessity with some downsides. For the above appetite inhibition reasons I have my guys take creatine postworkout only.
2gcorey: i don't know if you posted it in here anywhere (i did read it all a few weeks ago), but do you agree with the 3 workouts in 9 days routine?

Doggcrapp:: I agree with any schedule that takes a persons recovery in mind. There are a chosen few that can do the Mon Tues Thur Fri schedule and if someone feels that they are one of the "chosen" and go for that right off the bat Ill yell bullshit because you have to have special recovery indeed to make it thru that with rest pauses etc. Most people can do the M W F and thats the best schedule for the masses but Ive had a couple advanced lifters whose recovery ability was very bad. It doesnt mean your a 'candyass" for lack of a better word, it just means you weren't given the best recovery rate. I have one guy who is 255lbs who I personally train who overtrained on MWF so i split is bodyparts up three ways

chest shoulders tris
back bis forearms
calves hams quads

and stayed with MWF, but he still overtrained so now we are going Monday and Thursdays only still split up three ways. This isnt about what you choose to do schedule wise its more along the lines of what you have to do to recover

2gcorey::also, the days you don't lift what do you think about doing sprints (say 1/4mi warmup then 3 balls out sprints then 1/4 mi cooldown) instead of long distance cardio? wouldn't that keep muscle better then doing a long session cardio?

Doggcrapp:: For a 185lb guy who wants to look good for the beach yes either way will work. For a 300lb behemoth trying to keep every bit of muscle mass dieting down for a show, Id hate to see the injuries that could happen on an all out sprint 3 times every other day. Will it work? Yea. Will you be able to squat 315 rock bottom for 20 reps the next day? I doubt it. This kind of training that I do and have people do is absolutely brutal. I dont understand how anyone can go to hell and back on leg training and then be able to go out and do sprints the next day.
1369phil::My main concern is the use of deadlifts and rack deadlifts on back day and then squats 2 days after, I realise the massive importance of these movements but the lower back must take a hammering ??

Doggcrapp:: Ok just in case Im mistaken I see a "and" in there between deadlifts and rack deadlifts. You would do one or the other. If this worries you just switch it around--do leg presses on the next leg day--theres alot of alternatives you can use.

1369phil::On a similar note if I did Stiff leg deadlifts for hamstrings and then did squats for quads - my back would buckle with bugger all on the bar. Presumably you'd just swap Squats and SLDs around ?

Doggcrapp:: bingo--and again just switch things around to suit you. If that means doing a form of leg curls on a squat day and switching stiff legs to another day--there you go.

1369phil::I did squats RP style last workout (no knee wraps) - which worked very well - would there be any major issues doing them this way ?

Doggcrapp:: i dont know what weight your using--i got no idea. I sure as heck wouldnt want to see someone going sick heavy with no knee wraps though.

1369phil::And finally, what rep range and cadence do people use for deadlifts and rack deadlifts ?

Doggcrapp:: Usually one or two sets with one in the 8 rep range and then one heavier in the 4 rep range if its using my methods. Cadence is determined by form, the exercise and control. We always try to control descent whether thats one second or 5 seconds but thats not really feasible to think about on some exercises like deadlifts.
Badass::I'm just starting your program and had a few questions. First about the training. I am still rehabbing from a pretty serious injury and can't really hit legs like I should to follow your program. Should I just follow the same split but do what I need to to rehab my right leg and then do the rest of my training like you suggest?
Doggcrapp:: i would do the same split or maybe split it 3 ways but i would spend alot of time working on flexibility and stretching with that right leg--because deep movements are the key with leg training in your future.

Badass:: I also have a question about your views on nutrition. As far as I can tell you advocate a high protein, low carb diet.

Doggcrapp:: not entirely this depends on who the trainee is. I have some guys that cannot gain weight unless i give them enough carbs to eat during the day and I have some guys who get fat off of minimal carb intake so its really individualistic.

BAdass::With most of the carbs coming pre and post workout. Is this just because thats what you think works the best to build muscle or do you keep the carbs low to regulate bodyfat.

Doggcrapp:: the problem with high protein high to moderate fat and zero to low carb diets is that it gets so tedious that alot of people start hating eating like that and start craving carbs. I take the first 4 weeks training someone and go by what i hear from them and the scale and tweak things. If they have trouble gaining muscle mass I put their carb cuttoff back one hour and try to add olive oil at high pro fat meals. But the basic plan is i give them a choice of (high pro and fats) or (high pro and carbs) at meals and then (pro plus simple and complex carbs post workout) and then high protein lower carbs and lower fats after their carb cutoff I design for them. After complex carb cuttoff its pretty much protein and veggies/fiber. I have 3 guys that i train though (mostly older) who blow up if they even take in minimal carbs. For them I just have them take in carbs postworkout. And then I have them do a "shitload" on a weekend morning up to 2pm-3pm and then they get back on schedule. The "shitload" is no way my idea and I borrowed the concept of it from SKIP at profressional muscle and full credit goes to him. Works incredibly well though--even better than I thought it would in a bodyfat maintenance concept and especially dieting off bodyfat concept

I have a 250lb younger guy who I have eat like this
1) pro carbs or pro fats
2) pro carbs or pro fats
3) pro carbs or pro fats
4) pro carbs or pro fats
5) post workout meal with pro and zero fats and simple and complex carbs
b) or on off training days this meal becomes pro fiber (veggies salads etc)
6)protein with zero carbs and (most of the time-not always zero fats)

(middle of the nite)--if they get hungry they either eat like 6 or i have them make a zero carb protein drink in water at meal 6 and put it in the bathroom so when they get up in the middle of the nite to urinate they down it (Just dont be so groggy you piss in the shake and down it-lol)

Then I have an older very big bodybuilder 250lbs that is unbelievabley carb sensitive and i have to have him eat like this and he stays lean as hell and big
1) pro and fats (tblespoon of peanut butter and olive oil in the shake)
2) pro fats
3) pro fats
4) pro fats
5) post workout meal with simple carbs and complex carbs
b) pro veggies salads on off training days
6)pro zero carbs and zero fats
(middle of the nite same as above)

You just saw the tremendously short version and its individualistic but this will give you the gist of it. Ask some of the guys on this board who I personally train. My diet writeups usually take up 12-18 pages of microsoft word i've seen some say-lol

Badass:: I've never really had a problem with carbs making me add too much fat so I just wondered if I would make better gains with more carbs in my diet.

Doggcrapp:: then full speed ahead just determine a time for carb cuttoff--and its probaly going to be later than most (8pm maybe?)
Peacock:: DC or any others on DC program was whether u guys have any trouble with the back width exercises... U see for me whenever i do the pulldown or chins (besides the pulldown)with the slow negative normally it's the biceps with give way (i.e weakest link) before the the lats... Do u guys have the same problems...

Doggcrapp:: on the eccentric lean backwards very slightly on chinning/pulldown movements and take the arch out and round your back very slightly and use a wide grip on everything--problem solved--then get back to the back arched position when pulling on the concentric.

Peacock: ogg I was researching your training on other boards, aswell as this one.. I came across 2 different types of your methods both told by you.
This one I found in this thread..
DAY ONE
CHEST
SHOULDERS
TRICEPS
BACK WIDTH
BACK THICKNESS

DAY TWO
BICEPS
FOREARMS
CALVES
HAMSTRINGS
QUADS

DAY THREE OFF

DAY FOUR-REPEAT CHEST DAY ONE AND SEQUENCE BUT WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES

DAY FIVE-REPEAT DAY TWO AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES

DAY SIX OFF

DAY SEVEN-REPEAT DAY ONE AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES THAN DAY ONE AND FOUR

DAY EIGHT --REPEAT DAY TWO AND SEQUENCE WITH TOTAL DIFFERENT EXERCISES THEN DAY TWO AND FIVE

The next one that found was..
Day one= chest, shoulders, ect.
Day two= bis, legs ect.

Monday=day 1
Wed=day 2
Fri=day1
monday=2
and so on.

My question , is one of these method better?
Should I try the second example first and then progress to the first example?

toughnuts

Doggcrapp:: The first version will work for newbies who dont know how to properly focus on hardcore brutal training yet and get them gaining pretty darn fast. You have to remember skinny Billy who is squatting 135 benching 135 and deadlifting 135 is going to have somewhat of the same recovery (maybe a slight bit less) as SwoleNow Billy 8 years down the road. SwoleNow Billy needs alot more time to recover from deadlifting 500lbs compared to when he was deadlifting 135. As you become more advanced in this sport and start hoisting and shoving around some bigtime poundages you have to keep that in the back of your mind. The first version will also work incredibly well for anyone who has had a pronounced layoff from training from an injury or whatever--and will get them back to square one so much faster than bodypart one day a week training. Thirdly the first version can be used by people who know their recovery rate very well. I did it for a year and a half but I knew i was right on the cusp--and then my training weights just got so heavy that I felt I wasnt recovering so I switched from 4x every 7 days to 4x every 9 days. (MWF) It is a rare individual who can do that and recover from the first version but they are out there. I saw on a couple boards 2-3 guys doing that first version and 1 guy would be gaining by leaps and bounds putting on bigtime muscle mass at an alarming rate and the other one or two guys were blown out after 3 weeks in.
My recommendations are to go with Mon, Wen, Fri, Mon as almost everyone is ok with that. Ninety percent seem to be fine with that method, 5% seem to be able to take that step up to the first version, and 5% of the guys I train even have to take even more rest.
Doggcrapp:: Im starting to get delicate with the drug subject because Im sick of reading other boards and hearing "Doggcrapp recommends non stop cycling". That pisses me off. I dont recommend any cycling--I just gave examples of some choices people could do -- I put things in a context of if your going to stay on long periods of time then instead of bludgeoning yourself by staying on for a year straight, send intermittent signals HPTA wise at regular intervals. People cite the Minto studies and that 100mg shuts down the axis and I fully agree with that. What I dont agree with is that because theres exogenous testosterone flowing in someones body that--it renders nolvadex, arimidex, hcg, clomid completely inert and useless. If hypothetically your body is producing roughly 100mg a week of endo test what do you think its going to be when you get off? Probaly pretty damn low to zero. So is 50mg of prop eod during a cruise going to render all those accilliary drugs absolutely inert? I dont personally believe so. The whole key to muscle mass retention if you go on and off is to have a hpta that is up to par so you can keep the muscle mass youve gained. If your producing endo test like a 9 year old girl scout, Im sorry but that 250lbs of muscular monstrosity you have while "on" is out the window and gone when you get off. The decisions for blasting and cruising is up to the individual--if someone wants to go 4+2 and 4+2 again and then get off for the next year so be it. If someone wants to go 7+2-3 plus 7+2-3 continually because they are at an elite level then so be it--I think thats much healthier and productive than blasting 2 grams of test, 2Anad a day, and 800mg of deca a week all year long. If someone feels theres going to be too much testosterone in their body on the first cruise week then you taper down the first week like Ive previously stated and then do 2 weeks of hcg therapy in the following two weeks (with ancilliaries). The set in stone is its always 4-8 weeks of blasting (most do 6-7) and 2-3 weeks of cruising (most do the 2) and you get off when you personally decide to. Im not about nonstop super supplement usage--Im about letting people decide for themselves how they want to do things but(in a context that will work for them). I do agree with Palumbo in that longterm cycling adds a definite density to someones physique--no doubt about it--4 weeks on and then off for a year is going to produce fleeting gains. He recommends 16 to 20 weeks on straight--thats fine but I think it should be done in a context of 7+2 and then 7+2 etc.

I train a guy from Mexico where this is all legal and he told me he had test and tren available to him so it was basically done like this

500mg frontload test and then 250mg eod after that

150mg of tren eod

.50arim ed or eod(or similiar)

cruising was 50mg of TProp eod the first week or Tprop 100, 75, 50 (M W F) with arimidex, nolvadex and clomid 5432222etc the first week and then
1000ius of hcg ED with arim nolv and clom the second week
(and then back on again)
Chestrock: I plan on running four 4 week cycles and four 2 week cycles concurrently. I am 6'1" @ 210 and have done 4 previous cycles. Is it necessary to have arimidex during the cruise?

Doggcrapp:: as your trying to hit the HPTA via different pathways yes I feel its very beneficial to have in there. Do not skimp on trying to keep signals being sent to the HPTA as that is the key for keeping muscle mass.

Chest Rock:: I have plenty of nolvadex and clomid on hand and I have never had an issue of bloating when using T prop. I know that the arimidex is used for the bloating, but was wondering if the nolvadex used in its place during the cruise will be beneficial if arimidex is not used.

Doggcrapp:: yes it will be very beneficial and slightly more beneficial if you use both nolv and dex with clomid. You wouldnt skimp if you were on a gaining cycle correct? Its even more important not to skimp trying to keep yourself regulated. An impaired axis is surefire way of muscle mass falling off you like dead skin when you come off. But if the question is will clomid and nolv work during the cruise--yes is the answer
I hope you guys dont take it as bragging when I tell you about certain guys--Im just proud of them because it takes effort to change yourself so dramatically. Like I said before, I can provide a outline but if someone doesnt listen to me and does there own thing, I have no control. I have that situation right now with a couple guys (they know who they are) who hired me and did what I told them to do for only a couple weeks and then went back to volume, pro routines, Flex magazine articles or whatever methods they used before in training. They both came back to me recently and said "ok I've gotten nowhere and screwed up" ----My reply? "I feel sorry for you because Ive trained about 20 guys since then and they all flew right by and are way the hell past you, while you are still the same you were 8 months ago"
Most of my trainees make that huge jump up in mass quickly and then it slows down and you have to fight and claw your way up the charts after that. Thats just the way it is. The absolute hardest thing for me (repeatedly) to instill in someone is if you want to weigh 200lbs you have to eat like a guy who is 225lbs to get there--and if you want to weigh 250 or 300lbs its a 275lber and a 325lber that you have to aspire to eat like.
Huzz::i think your 4+2 is a great idea..i wish i had started reading this post sooner....but i am currently on a cycle of 1000mg of test and have been for the last 9 months...what is the best way to come off a 9 month cycle .....palumbo recommends dropping to 500mg for 2 weeks and then 2 weeks of hcg followed by clomid...i'm probably going to crash big time and i'm scared to come off....

Doggcrapp: C was wondering how would u set your program if all i have to work with is just DB (from 10-120lbs)and no other machine apparently some exercise don't lend itself very well with RP without the aid of machine... Also i couldn't do any BB squat or deadlift for that matter... Any suggestions on the exercise i should incorporation for the differrent bodyparts ?

Doggcrapp:: honestly and this isnt the answer you want to hear but invest in yourself and join a well stocked gym because your only holding yourself backward. If you were a sprinter, would you be running 200m in workboots and a snowsuit? My whole concept of things is to get you to be twice the size muscularly in half the time it takes other people to do it. But if you give me limited resources (equipment) your right back down to gaining normally (if not slower) than everyone else. Unless you want to hold dumbells and try to hacksquat ever single leg workout--no this isnt going to work
I got a couple questions on this already in my email of what I wrote previously in a diet question. Remember that I said ive had 2-3 people who had to go that route. Thats out of alot of people Ive trained. They had to take in only protein and small amounts of fats early and then only protein with greens late in the day with their only carbs coming post workout. Two of those guys were over 330lbs once and incredibly obese. The other guy had predominantly endomorphic qualities too. Sometimes i see on other boards things like "i tried doggcrapps eating methods and ive gained 30lbs of lean muscle in the last 6 months with no gain in bodyfat" and then someone else will say "I tried his diet and I got fat" --Well geez your two different individuals and unless I sit down with you and go over everything of who you are, how you gain, endo meso ecto, etc etc the same exact diet isnt going to work for everyone. But I give the basic outline and the individual has to tune it to himself. The high protein always stays---fats are used in forms of olive oil etc if you have trouble gaining weight (but not in a carb meal) and then you the individual have to figure out your carb cuttoff time because I cannot figure that out for you without talking to or knowing you. Someone like Coastal is an ecto-meso and we had some difficulty in the very very beginning getting him to gain muscle mass vs leaness. But Coastal has it down now--he knows he needs to bump this up to gain and bump that down if needed---its a very very tough line to ride because if you dont give a little when trying to gain muscle mass because your so scared of putting on bodyfat--here is the 100% truth--UNLESS YOUR BLACK OR YOUR GENETICS ARE UP THERE ON THE ELITE SCALE (.0001%)YOUR NEVER GOING TO BE THE BIG BOY ON THE BLOCK IF YOU DONT GIVE A LITTLE TO GET A LITTLE. If I could count the bodybuilders in this world that are stuck in that 200-220lb area it would be astronomical. And they want to so badly to be 250 260 270lbs of monstrousity but almost every single one of them will be gaining that 2lbs this year, 2 lbs next year, and so on and 5 years from now they will now weigh 212lbs. In my eyes if your a bodybuilder trying to put on muscle mass, you just waisted 5 growing years that youll never get back. I went back to my home town 2 years ago--we have a big hardcore gym in my hometown. I walked in that gym and people were saying "holy shit" because I had gotten so dramatically larger since my last visit 5 years earlier. There was one guy out of all those gym members I saw in that gym that had changed at all in that 5 years. Everyone else looked the exact same if not worse. What runs through my mind is-"what the hell have you been doing?" "Why kill yourself in here to stay the same?" Gaining muscle is incredibly hard-it takes years if not a decade to put on herculean muscle mass (if you do everything right)--It takes 3-4 months to get shredded. Are you going to be happy in 5 years if you weigh 4lbs more than you do now? I believe the emphasis should be about proper food intake to gain bigtime muscle mass and eat your weigh up to a larger more muscular bodyweight. The secondary emphasis should be to stay lean but never compromising the muscle mass gain and you do that by carb cuttoffs and cardio. I get incredibly frustrated when someone comes to me and they tell me what they eat in a day (3200 with 250p) and they say they dont have much of an appetite ----and they think the problem to their lack of gains for the last 4 years is something wrong with their training or "their drug stack" Simply put you cant take a 200lb guy and make him 250lbs if he is eating like a 200lb guy. I know that sounds stupid but god so many people just cant grasp that simple principle. Does anyone in this forum have the genetics of Shawn Ray? Maybe one guy does but I doubt it. Between 1987 when he won his pro card at 198lbs and 2001 when he competed I believe at 212lbs--I cant think of a time Shawn Ray was off drugs in that period. His appearance and competitive schedule was so intense that if he got off it wasnt for very long. Hes much much smaller now and trying to impregnate his wife so I believe he has been clean the last couple of years. My point? From 1987 to 2001 Shawn Ray tried to stay lean and near his competing weight "as he says"---In 14 years with those genetics and that super supplement schedule that guy gained 14lbs on his competitive weight--only about a 1lb a year. Thats food for thought for people reading this who dont even have close to the genetic gifts Shawn Ray has or the access to drug regimen he did.
PS:::Im going to leave out the testomonials and all the guys posting their muscle mass gains they had from the original CFP thread on this "Random thoughts" thread because it seems kind of self serving and all those posts where in a space of 3 plus years plus some of those guys are even much much larger now. I just dont want to be cut and pasting guys posting "Ive gained 60lbs this year with DC training" over here because it just comes off like Im patting myself on the back - screw that-

-if you want to read thru those old threads yourself you can at this address--
http://www.animalkits.be/phpBB/view...rum=11&1587 just remember that thread starts from over 3 years ago and my theories have changed a little from the feedback my trainees have given me
WSU:Changes in diet include more protein powder, as well as probably about 2 to 3 more chicken breasts a day. Right now an average day looks like this.....
6 AM: 1 cup oats, 1 can tuna, whey protein shake
7 AM: Train, pwo shake w/ dextrose and whey
9 AM: 1 can tuna, 1 cup oats
11 AM: 1 can tuna, 1 cup oats
1 PM: 1 can tuna, 1 cup oats
3 PM: sugar free jello, chicken breast
6 PM: 2 chicken breasts
8 PM: 2 chicken breasts
Any suggestions as to how to improve (I know you are going to tell me to add olive oil, but I am so ****ing scared of getting fat. I know I need to, and everything you have said has worked tremendously, so I am sure I will start this soon).

Doggcrapp:: ok two things strike me right off the bat. Higher protein intake can lead to dehydration so you will probaly have to up your water intake even higher than previous. And that might rectify some of the vascularity problems you said you were felt lacking right there. #2--tuna 4 times a day. I think red meat is key to major muscle mass gains and I would substitue red meat or (maybe even eggs)
--#3 With how your day is set up I would only take in olive oil at maybe the 1pm meal. We dont want to have any carryover from your insulin spike post workout shake--so I would recommend not putting it in the breakfast meal --and you could probaly get away with it but I would skip Olive Oil at the 11pm meal too. At the 1pm meal it would have to be a high protein-fat load meal--meaning you would have to drop the oats. If i was training you, I would ask for a large eggwhite omelet (with maybe 2 yolks) at breakfast in place of the tuna--at the 1pm meal i would try to get you to eat a large steak with maybe a protein drink with olive oil and some veggies. At your 3 6 and 8 meals i would just suggest salad and/or cooked broccoli after your chicken breasts to satisfy hunger and get some roughage in there (I have to say that I usually let the people I train have a more open and varied menu with some cheat meals and a "BON APPETIT" veiw of things but Im keeping in mind the utmost importance of the bodyfat issue with you. Most of the guys I train--we tweak and tweak their diet until we get to a point where we have a direct carb cutoff time where the ratio of muscle mass gain is great and the bodyfat gain is minimal/zero. Someone like Copa has to cut his carbs very very early (morning)or even minimal carbs all day sometimes. Kpumpkin doesnt gain bodyfat by cutting carbs at 5pm-6pm. I encourage cheat meals every once in a while--just to throw homeostasis a loop. The body is incredibly efficient at regulating itself and I like to throw a monkey wrench at it from time to time. When I write up the diets for these guys (you can ask them)I drill that fact into their heads--to trust me on this. I ask if they are going to eat at a fast food place that they blast as many damn hamburgers down the hatch as possible--and then and only then eat the fries or other carb additives to the meal. Most likely they will be so full they arent going to want to even look at the fries. That makes me happy because (besides the bun) they pretty much stuck with the high protein-fat load meal and 2)they are happy because they got rid of that burger craving. If its something like ice cream, cookies, brownies or to that effect they are craving--I ask that we gobble this down before our carb cuttoff point we come up with and a 60 gram protein powder shake has to be downed first. Then its fill your face with as much ice cream or chocalate chip cookies as you want because I want you to eat so much that you dont even want to think about sweets for awhile. In moderation its that direct curveball that I believe keeps people from stagnating with (gains/bodyfat loss) during diets.

toughnuts

WSU::As far as training vascularity, it is ****ing sick. I am more vascular while I train than ever. It's just that during the normal day it has gone down the tube.

Doggcrapp::lets try upping the water intake and throw some glycerol in the mix.

WSU::Another routine change has been cutting the type of cardio. I used to do around 4 days a week 20 minute jog in the moring, either on an empty stomch or a protein shake. Now I go w/ yoru method of longer, less frequent sessions.

Doggcrapp::keep an eye on that as you might be getting too depleted with 45-60 minute cardio 4 times a week and might find yourself right on the money at 3 times a week and 30-40 minutes

WSU::Again, thank you so much. IT makes me sick to think of all the time and gear I wasted overtraining. You are the man DC!

Doggcrapp::much appreciated
WSU::1)Middle of the night protein shakes: I know sleep and rest is important, but what if you are already up to use the restroom? I have implemented this on and off and was wondering if I am wasting my time or not.

Doggcrapp::heck no i dont think its a waste at all--most people have a set time they get up in the middle of the nite to go to the restroom anyway. If its feasible for them I would suggest making a shake before you go to bed and having it at your bedside or in the bathroom so you can swig it down--if its already made you will drink it down, if you have to go make one-you might talk yourself out of it because your so tired. Some of my trainees get up in the middle of the nite and eat--I ask them to either drink down a shake, low carb protein bar or roast beef cold cuts. Of course both the protein drink and bars must be high protein/low carb in my method of doing things.

WSU::2) Ab training: Still use the same theory of hitting them heavy w/ drop sets, or do you recommend something else?

Doggcrapp: I believe abs should be hit progressively. I think a great many bodybuilders make the mistake of tone training their abs with incredible amounts of endless repetitions. If you build up your frontal ab area to the point that they are pretty thick--even with a layer of bodyfat they are going to show. Im talking frontal abs not obliques! If you do bodyweight repetitions over and over for years on end--thats tone training and you will never build any appreciable abs that way. You can visually see this with all the people that train abs with bodyweight only year after year. Ninety percent of them have no abs showing unless they get down into that sub 7% bodyfat range. This all becomes rather moot precontest when sub 6% bodyfat levels are going to have everyones abs showing. People that train abs progressively with weights have abs showing sometimes even at 10%, 12%-- I like people to do abs alternating between hanging or elbow supported leg raises with progressive weights and something like the nautilus nitro ab crunch machine with a weight stack. Straight sets are done --and the rep range is 15-30. Whenever someone reaches at least 22 reps he goes up in weight next time. With leg raises this will be going up the rack with dumbells held in your feet--5-10-15-20 etc. With the Nautilus Nitro you go up with the weight stack every time you make at least 22 reps. Its in the same scheme of things (warmup first with a bodyweight set, then maybe a lighter weight set too if your abs are really strong and then do one work set) This is a bodypart where i like to see people do the true 6 second negative and explosive positive on. People always fret on weighted ab training citing various reasons but--If anything is going to make your obliques larger its Genetics and balancing/supporting 500lb squats and 500lb deadlifts more so than any weighted ab exercise with a 15lb dumbell between your feet.
Baron::However now I have a little trouble with some things you said-namely limiting carbs after 6pm. Ok what about me?? Because of my work schedule I need to be in bed at 9pm at the latest, and my workout is usually at 7:30-8pm. As you can see then my post workout shake is often my last meal. You can see my problem here. I mean can your course be followed by someone like me-who basically works out about two hours before bed?? Is it possible for me to get proper post workout carb loading without getting fat?? I have litle problem gaining muscle, however I also have little problem in gaining bodyfat. Right now I'm gaining well using your priciples, however I'm afraid to eat too many carbs before bed-even though it may be hurting my post workout nutritional needs. So what should I do??

Doggcrapp:: this is easy Baron---have your cutoff time for complex carbs such as bread, pasta, rice, cereal, and potatoes at about 4pm or so--and then go ahead with a postworkout meal like previously said in this thread and maybe throw in a baked potatoe (or some kind of complex carbs)too
and hit the sack. As previously said your body is in a state of receptiveness that the result shouldnt be an increase of bodyfat levels at all. If you feel too depleted for your workouts I would experiment with a carb drink pre workout but I dont think that will happen if you protein carb/ or protein fat load well before 4pm. If bodyfat becomes an issue all you have to experiment with is moving that carb cuttoff time down from 4pm and/or dropping the baked potato or complex carb with the postworkout meal. If it was me and I was you I would take in a 75-100 gram protein postworkout drink in malt/dextrose or grape juice along with 10 grams of glutamine and 7.5-10 grams of creatine. If I was still hungry Id have a baked potato and if i woke up in the middle of the nite hungry I would probaly have some roast beef cold cuts/protein bar/or protein drink in water.
Well during cruising i usually have the guys I train doing antiestrogens (clomid +arimidex+nolvadex) for one and one meal less is eaten and I give them the option of dumping the olive oil or not. I almost actually like hearing about cruising from people I train than the blasting--as about 10 days in on the cruising-the bloat is gone--and they see all the muscle they just built from the 4-8 weeks prior. I think the guys on this thread that I train could probaly attest to that---the look they have during the latter half of the cruising is probaly their favorite + pretty damn hard and they are probaly the most pleased at that moment more so than when blasting. I do tell most of the people I train--"your going to be kind of bloated and smoother on the blasting phases because im trying to make a bigger You"
You cant look at this as 4 week cycles (blasting). You look at the big picture.
Four weeks (again your choice--you can go to 6 or 7 or 8 if wanted) blasting for muscle mass gains and then 2 weeks cruising with very low dose test the first week, HCG the second week and maybe the third, arimidex, nolvadex and clomid used. Only pure blood tests would prove it out but I theorize that the proper signals are being sent to the hypothalamus, testes et all to keep the hpta axis functioning at intermittent intervals instead of 4 months plus of inhibition. I know some guys tend to disagree with that theory but I feel Im right due to the tremendous wealth of feedback Ive gotten from people using that protocol. This thread and the feedback Ive gotten in emails from it have been like an extensive lab report in itself. Unlike chronic users who experience extreme lethargy, injuries, sickness, and most of all loss of libido and/or function--the people that do this 4-7 week blast 2-3 week cruise arent suffering those kind of effects. A person could do that twice or three times and look at it as a 12 or 18 week cycle (and then never use anabolics again ever)--the choice is up to the individual in what he chooses to do. My thoughts to this is to always keep the bodies natural hormonal setup in place (as best I can do it)
The thing that drives me absolutely nuts on other boards is these guys keep saying "THAT WAY YOUR ALWAYS ON, YOU NEVER COME OFF ETC ETC"---the answer to that is YOU COME OFF WHENEVER YOU WANT TO! I dont know why these dolts on other boards cant get a comprehension of that! If you decide to do 6 + 2, 6 + 2, 6 + 2 and then get off for the next 8 months-great.

The whole problem with super supplements in the first place is people dont give a crap what happens to their HPTA. I believe thats the key. People are very NOW orientated, what can i gain in muscle RIGHT NOW. Eight months later they get off their cycle feeling great 30lbs heavier-do the 2 weeks of clomid and arimidex and BOOM lose 23lbs of muscle, get sick, joint ache, low testosterone symptoms etc etc etc. I believe these problems can be rectified and much much more muscle mass can be kept with my methods.

FUZ:now im going to start your training methods on mon. and am going to start out with mon,wed,fri split or 4 workouts in 8 days. Now would you instead of choosing 3 of your fav exersizes just use 2 since with only training mon,wed,fri it would take 2 weeks to cycle through all 3. Thanks for your answers DC, i love your theories and methods, cant wait till you write that book o u still do the extreme stretches durin the cruising phase... How abt claves izzt still the same thing 5 s neg & 15s hold but at 75%...

Doggcrapp--comfortable stretches with lighter weights than what you do during blasting and i would just do calves however you want too. If you look at the big picture and take ego out of the equation what I try to do is get people to push hard and i mean HARDCORE for 4-8 weeks with progressive weights and eating and then maintain, repair and regroup for 2 weeks which sets you up for another huge push forward for another 4-8 weeks. The guys I train on this webboard who have been faithfully blasting and cruising away--correct me if I am wrong--but at the end of that 2 weeks of cruising, which i dont allow you to train all out or eat like its going out of style(as in a blasting phase)--how many of you are chomping at the bit to eat and train all out again. I would say 90% of the you are. They cant wait to start chowing down and push huge weights again. Its so important to kind of take it easy during those 2 weeks and use the definition of "cruising" as its applied here. I laugh because some of the guys I train have alot of trouble eating as much as i want them too when i first start training them and then during their cruising I hear them say "god I am freaking starving!"--and I still have them eating 5 times a day. Jerome was chasing around his house cat with two pieces of bread.
Growinlikeagorilla:: In your vast experience, how heavy can one get "without the juice"...i know there's a lot of variables, but ballpark figure....230? 240? possibly 250 or am i dreaming? i'm 25 yrs old, 5'11" and 220lbs and would consider myself as having average genetics [white].

Doggcrapp:: alot of variables indeed including genetics, bodyfat, diet, training. If someone was dialed in and did everything right I believe a hard lean 3.5lbs of muscle mass per inch of height natural is possible. I'm saying that (hard, lean)---but if we are talking an offseason look with some smoothness then I believe someone "dialed in" could get to 4.0lbs per inch of height. So a 6 foot guy could feasibly get to 288lbs somewhat smooth and offseason. And 252lbs hard and lean. Again this all depends on a myriad of factors. If i was in a race to get my natural trainee vs someone elses other natural trainees the absolutely largest possible (muscularly) in the shortest time span--I would do the following

1)incredible amounts of food--high protein in the time frames i have previously recommended (so much food that if done by itself it would make him very fat--more on that later)--A huge bulk food binge that would put on as much muscle naturally (and some fat) as humanly possible in the shortest time span

2)Very short workouts--heavy progressive weights---rest pause training---extreme stretching

3)Creatine, glutamine, ala, cla, multivitamin

4)Id have him walking on a treadmill for 60 minutes 5-6 times a week to counter that extreme food intake fat gain. And I would tweak those numbers as we went along, up or down


He essentially would become a human blast furnace. That would be the fastest way to make a 175lb natural guy a lean natural 250lb bodybuilder.

Can most people do that? No, its very time consuming, and incredibly hard to do consistently. People dont think in a certain context. Lets say someone weighs 175lbs and they want to be 250lbs someday (hopefully quick)---If they didnt lift, didnt do cardio and just ate huge amounts of food just so the scale shows 250lbs how long would it take to get up that 75lbs? It would take a long time. In my eyes, if you did it in one year that would be pretty incredible. AND THATS JUST PURE BODYFAT! Just think of the extremes you would have to go thru to do that same trick muscularly. Theres no way in hell you could even get close to putting on 75lbs of muscle naturally in a year unless you had "top of the line" genetics. I just like people to understand how hard it is to put on a great deal of muscle mass and how you have to "push the envelope" in eating, training and cardio to get there. Not to put down the Elite website but Ive noticed alot of people there are long time lifters 25-40 years old who have been lifting for 5-20 years. And 95% of them are in that 175lb to 215lb range still to this day. They want to make it happen but for some reason they believe they will hook on to something magical after 10 years and take off. But it never happens. Many have no clue whatsoever of the lengths someone needs to go thru to get extreme muscle mass. (mostly foodwise)--I hope some of the guys reading this paragraph think about themselves during this. Do you want to be one of those guys 10 years from now that are still the "normal" guys in the gym? The same guys year after year that look the same? Four years ago they were 192lbs and now they are 196lbs. Personally I couldnt live with that. I couldnt do 156 workouts a year for one LB of muscle--thats a waste of freaking time...
****Just a sidenote I saw on CFP. FrigginHuge posted the following on the board about the Night of Champions show and to this day I still think his post rocks--LOL

Frigginhuge::"I haven't bought my ticket yet and I may pull out if I don't put on the size I need....we all know the guys up onstage are gonna look great.....but the real competition is: who's the biggest mother****er in the audience?.....LOL"

Doggcrapp:FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=" riceless and aint that the truth-LOL
I think the absolute hardest decision people have to make in this sport is whether to go to an elite level. Absolutely. It seems most people can get to that 200lb to 230lb barrier lean and stay there. I originally did and I know most of you guys are or have been there too. To go beyond that takes a very weighty decision. To accumalate enough muscle mass in the shortest time possible, what would be the fastest way? Most likely it is to get big, somewhat smooth and put the time in at the dinner table and with heavy weights. Whats the downside of that? You are no longer JoeClub guy--lean at 230lbs and getting the girls. You are now bloated, large, and heavy which makes your face change dramatically and suddenly those girls that thought "god he is cute" no longer look your way. Its a huge decision to make. And if someone is satisfied at being a little bit larger than the next guy at 200-230lbs and very lean more power to them. But if you think you are going to stay incredilbly lean and make it up to a 4.0LBS per inch of height level--unless you have unbelievable genetics--or are black its not going to happen for the average guy. You can look at someone like Darrem Charles or Claude Groiux as people who stay lean all the time trying to get larger. Awesome physiques yes and the weight gain is quality but how much faster would they put on muscle mass by throwing caution to the wind and going for it and chowing down. They change very little from year to year. I'll use King Kamali as an example. Heres a guy with ok genetics but no where near the genetics of a Coleman or Wheeler etc. This guy catches so much hell and guff in the offseason for getting so smooth and bloated. Do you think King Kamali would be a pro right now if at 200lbs he decided he was going to stay very lean 8% or so and try to make pro status that way? No way in hell! The guy force fed himself up to a very smooth, bloated and heavy 300lbs and forced his body into a pro mass body. In my mind he took the absolutely fastest way from point A to point B--otherwise he would be slaving away like the majority of gym members out there with big dreams yet amateur status. Lee Priest. Dorian Yates (in his earlier years)--more examples of guys who didnt care what the general public thought and decided to take it to the ultimate mass level. What skewers peoples minds is they see someone like Paul Dillett who admittingly ate once or twice a day for a long time --and the guy is enormous. But thats the exception to the rule. If your black--sorry to differentiate but your genetics are usually very gifted and muscle mass comes real easy. Three meals a day with half ass workouts and black guys are sporting 20 inch guns and 255lb physiques lean. The rest of us dont have that luxury or even close to it.

toughnuts

I see so many people stuck in the 220-240 range doing everything else right but not realizing that the only way they are going to put on 20lbs more of muscle mass is by eating your way up to it. If your 220 and you want to be 240lbs you better start eating like a 260lb bodybuilder to get there. And thats alot of food! When i was coming up in size and in that 225-240lb range I got girls galore. When I made the decision that I wanted to be as large muscularly as my genetics allow and took it to the 250-300 range---alot of those same type of girls started looking the other way. IM thankful as hell that i have a fiance that realizes what a bodybuilder must do to make it to a 4.0lb per inch range. The "female" "dating" "attraction" decision right there is a huge one that keeps alot of bodybuilders from ever getting into that inhuman muscle mass level. I dont blame them. Theres alot of people that want it bad (huge muscle size) and have alot better genetics than the next guy but either dont know how to go about it or cant stand forcefeeding themselves to get there. Nothing has been harder for me then getting past the 260LB to the 300lb range. I couldnt believe how much food I had to take in to get that scale to budge just 3LBS over 2 months time. It gets incredibly frustrating and consistency has made it happen for me. If at 137lbs when i started, I tried all this time to stay at a 8% bodyfat range but still trying to put on as much muscle as humanly possible, I have no doubt that i would be weighing about 215LBS right now. My decision was I didnt want to look normal. I can wear the loosest long sleeve shirt and baggy jeans and people all day still have no doubt commenting or realizing Im a bodybuilder. I couldnt say that when i was covered up and very lean at 225lbs. It was just a personal decision for me and I feel I have gotten to point B from point A at the quickest rate possible. I actually look forward to the day I can bring this all down to a very lean, jacked, hard as a rock comfortable weight for me--(somewhere around 260-270lbs). Until then I have some goals I would like to accomplish and this rapid muscle accumalation (for me) project continues on. Heres some pros who decided the same decision I did long ago and its amazing to me that most people think these guys walk around 24/7 at 7% (via the monthly Flex magazine spread).

http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbull...mp;pagenumber=1

I believe the two hardest decisions there are to make in bodybuilding is whether to a)use drugs and b)going to a level where the human body truly doesnt want to be. Its a question every bodybuilder should ask himself. What would be the quickest way for me to put on 50lbs of muscle mass while staying reasonably lean? IN my mind that means eating enough food that your body goes beyond the limits its set for itself, doing everything in your power with diet manipulation to stay leaner while also acquiring muscle mass as fast as possible, maybe walking treadmill work maybe 3-5 times a week on off leg training days (varies from person to person and needs to be determined), and nutritional supplementation. Its a huge decision that not many people can put up with or have the fortitude to do or more importanly--even want to do. So I set out to solve some of the problems to the whole deal, I wanted to make the absolutely largest bodybuilders I could at the exact same bodyfat they started at or most of the time getting even leaner.....thats how the carb cuttoffs and cardio, meal timing came into play. If we have trouble gaining muscle mass its olive oil in the shakes and cardio is lessened, everyone is different in dieting needs and I tweak things as I go along. Joe 175lbs who is an extreme ectomorph isnt going to be eating like Joe 275lbs who is an extreme ectomorph just as Joe endomorph at a dumpy 180lbs isnt going to be eating like Joe endomorph who I made into 280lbs of monstrosity and lean. The bottom line is point A to point B. What will get you their the fastest without compromising yourself?

warriors

some inspirational stuff in those posts

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