Why CrM > CEE

The Brotherhood · 04-30-2007, 10:50 PM

The issues with CEE

a) First and foremost, 5g of Creatine monohydrate consumed daily has been shown to saturate muscle creatine stores 100%. It is impossible by definition to beat 100% saturation, and 5g is hardly an inconvenient dose to warrant the CEE claims that "it requires less", or that it "gets absorbed more".

Quote:

Single- and multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of oral creatine.

* Persky AM,
* Muller M,
* Derendorf H,
* Grant M,
* Brazeau GA,
* Hochhaus G.

Department of Pharmaceutics, College of Pharmacy, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA.

Supplementation with exogenous creatine (Cr) has shown physiological benefits in humans, but little is known about the pharmacokinetics of Cr in humans. Six healthy males completed an open-label study consisting of a full pharmacokinetic analysis following a single oral dose of Cr monohydrate (71 mg kg-1) and at steady-state after 6 days of Cr administration (71 mg kg-1 qid). After the single oral dose, the clearance (CL/F) was 0.20 +/- 0.066 L h-1 kg-1, tmax was 1.9 +/- 0.88 hours, and Cmax = 102.1 +/- 11.2 mg h L-1. At steady-state, CL/F decreased to 0.12 +/- 0.016 L h-1 kg-1, tmax did not change, and Cmax increased to 162.2 +/- 30.0 mg L-1. Penetration (AUCMUSCLE/AUCPLASMA) of Cr into the interstitial muscle space, as determined by microdialysis, was 0.47 +/- 0.09 and 0.37 +/- 0.27 for the single dose and at steady-state, respectively. Plasma and muscle data were simultaneously fitted with a model incorporating a saturable absorption and first-order elimination process. In conclusion, repeated dosing of Cr caused a reduction in clearance that could result from saturation of the skeletal muscle pool of Cr.

also of interest

Quote:

Creatine supplementation: a comparison of loading and maintenance protocols on creatine uptake by human skeletal muscle.

* Preen D,
* Dawson B,
* Goodman C,
* Beilby J,
* Ching S.

Department of Human Movement and Exercise Science at The University of Western Australia, Crawley, W.A., Australia, 6009.

The purposes of this investigation were first to determine the impact of 3 different creatine (Cr) loading procedures on skeletal muscle total Cr (TCr) accumulation and, second, to evaluate the effectiveness of 2 maintenance regimes on retaining intramuscular TCr stores, in the 6 weeks following a 5-day Cr loading program (20 g x day(-1). Eighteen physically active male subjects were divided into 3 equal groups and administered either: (a) Cr (4 x 5 g x day(-1) x 5 days), (b) Glucose+Cr (1 g x (-1) of body mass twice per day), or (c) Cr in conjunction with 60 min of daily muscular (repeated-sprint) exercise. Following the 5-day loading period, subjects were reassigned to 3 maintenance groups and ingested either 0 g x day(-1), 2 g. day(-1) or 5 g x day(-1) of Cr for a period of 6 weeks. Muscle biopsy samples (vastus lateralis) were taken pre- and post-loading as well as post-maintenance and analyzed for skeletal muscle ATP, phosphocreatine (PCr), Cr, and TCr concentrations. Twenty-four hour urine samples were collected for each of the loading days and last 2 maintenance days, and used to determine whole body Cr retention. Post-loading TCr stores were significantly (p <.05) increased in all treatment conditions. The Glucose+Cr condition produced a greater elevation (p <.05) in TCr concentrations (25%) than the Cr Only (16%) or Exercise+Cr (18%) groups. Following the maintenance period, muscle TCr stores were still similar to post-loading values for both the 2 g x day(-1) and 5 g x day(-1) conditions. Intramuscular TCr values for the 0 g x day(-1) condition were significantly lower than the other conditions after the 6-week period. Although not significantly different from pre-loading concentrations, muscle TCr for the 0 g x day(-1) group had not fully returned to baseline levels at 6 weeks post-loading. The data suggests that Glucose+Cr (but with a much smaller glucose intake than currently accepted) is potentially the most effective means of elevating TCr accumulation in human skeletal muscle. Furthermore, after 5 days of Cr loading, elevated muscle TCr concentrations can be maintained by the ingestion of small daily Cr doses (2-5 g) for a period of 6 weeks and that TCr concentrations may take longer than currently accepted to return to baseline values after such a Cr loading regime.

PMID: 12660409 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Literature also observes that non-responsiveness to creatine is not due to the supplement not illiciting its desired effects, but due to the presence of an already existing high saturation of creatine in the muscle cells, combined with fewer Type II Fibers. CEE, or any form of creatine, can do nothing more for people like these, and the claim that it would work for creatine non-responders is bunk

Quote:

Acute creatine monohydrate supplementation: a descriptive physiological profile of responders vs. nonresponders.

* Syrotuik DG,
* Bell GJ.

Faculty of Physical Education and Recreation, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada. Syrotuik@ualberta.ca

The purpose of this study was to describe the physiological profile of responders (>20 mmol.kg(-1) dry weight [dw] increase in total intramuscular creatine monohydrate [Cr] + phosphorylated creatine [PCr]) versus nonresponders (<10 mmol.kg(-1) dw increase) to a 5-day Cr load (0.3 g.kg(-1).d(-1)) in 11 healthy men (mean age = 22.7 years). Pre-post 5-day cellular measures included total resting Cr content (Cr + PCr), fiber type composition, and fiber type cross-sectional area (CSA) determined from muscle biopsies of the vastus lateralis. Body mass, daily dietary intake, 24-hour urine outputs, urinary Cr and creatinine (CrN), and strength performance measures (1 repetition maximum [1RM] bench and leg press) were also assessed before and after the 5-day loading period. Results indicated that there were 3 levels of response to the 5-day supplementation: responders (R), quasi responders (QR), and nonresponders (NR) with mean changes in resting Cr + PCr of 29.5 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 3), 14.9 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 5), and 5.1 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 3), respectively. The results support a person-by-treatment interaction to acute Cr supplementation with R possessing a biological profile of lowest initial levels of Cr + PCr, greatest percentage of type II fibers, and greatest preload muscle fiber CSA and fat-free mass. Responders also showed improvement in 1RM leg press scores following the 5-day loading period. NR had higher preload levels of Cr + PCr, less type II muscle fibers, small preload muscle CSA, and lower fat-free mass and displayed no improvements in 1RM strength scores. The results suggest that to be considered a responder to acute oral supplementation, a favorable preexisting biological profile may determine the final extent to which an individual responds to supplementation. Physiologic profiles of nonresponders appear to be different and may limit their ability to uptake Cr. This may help partially explain the reported equivocal performance findings in the Cr supplementation literature.

PMID: 15320650 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

b) The dreaded "CrM bloat" first off occurs in few people.
Those that it occurs in tend to be a) Drinking too little fluids and/or b) dosing incorrectly (too high). The dreaded CrM bloat also goes away after a couple of months (sometimes weeks), it is not permanent.

c) CEE has little to no literature on its effectiveness or safety. It's potential effectiveness is limited to anecdotal evidence only.

c) CEE is HIGHLY UNSTABLE IN NEUTRAL pH (Water, Saliva).

(Credit for image: deserusan)

This means that most of the ingested CEE, especially powdered CEE, turns to creatinine before it is available for absorption. The issue with this is twofold

i) Creatinine will not give you the desired effects of creatine supplementation

ii) Elevated serum creatine levels are high correlated to renal failure and kidney problems. Remember that newbie who said creatine would be bad for your kidneys? If you use CEE, he could very potentially be right. There have been reports on these very forums of people getting tested after using CEE and observing abnormally large quantities of serum creatinine.

Furthermore, many and most of the "top" CEE products have been tested for CEE, and almost all of them were observed to have little to no actual CEE content, and had CrM and creatinine instead.Link I have been notified by a forum member and friend that the authenticity of the testing in the linked thread is under question. I will still leave the link here, however

Don't waste your money on something that cannot possibly be more effective than the safe and proven CrM, and that has potentially hazardous health risks.

Cliff Notes

- CEE is unstudied in safety and effectiveness
- CEE by nature is very unstable in neutral pH
- Unstable CEE = you ingesting more creatinine than anything, which is both useless and hazardous

- CrM has been studied for safety and effectiveness, and has come clean
- CrM has to be dosed at small doses and therefore the claims of CEE "requiring less" is unwarranted
- CrM "bloat" is not permanent
- Non responders to CrM will probably not respond to anything.

**Succio** · 04-30-2007, 10:54 PM

great post, hope everyone reads this

**romanaz** · 05-01-2007, 05:08 AM

word, why change something thats great?

danman77220 · 05-01-2007, 05:22 AM

I just started loading my first tub of mono... can't wait for it to kick in.

How effective is mono, on average, for a first timer in terms of strength?

**Trick D** · 05-01-2007, 05:40 AM

i unfortunately never saw results from CrM... I tended to find good results from CEE, maybe it was just solid dieting. Who knows.

wannabstrong · 05-01-2007, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danman77220

I just started loading my first tub of mono... can't wait for it to kick in.

How effective is mono, on average, for a first timer in terms of strength?

During (or a little after... Its been over 4 years) the first week of use I saw immediate strength increases on all my lifts, endurance increased as well. I could fight for the extra rep or two. I definitely saw steady increases in the poundages alot while I was on it.

I really liked the fact that I was never sore while I was on it.

Remember to drink alot of water to stay hydrated, especially if you are doing alot of outdoor activities during the summer.

The Brotherhood · 05-01-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danman77220

I just started loading my first tub of mono... can't wait for it to kick in.

How effective is mono, on average, for a first timer in terms of strength?

Average athletes studied seem to observe an average of 7.6% increase.

J Sports Med Phys Fitness.

The effects of creatine supplementation on performance during the repeated bouts of supramaximal exercise.

**romanaz** · 05-01-2007, 05:23 PM

what I love best is, when I cycled off creatine the first time, all my lifts went up to!

I'd have to check my log when I started creatine, but I was a n00b when I first took and now I'm a pro-n00b.

ja_ke · 05-01-2007, 09:52 PM

i felt like i got MUCH better results from cee. also i didnt get bloated compared to gaining 10 lbs of water and looking like shit whenever i took mono.

**Succio** · 05-01-2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romanaz

what I love best is, when I cycled off creatine the first time, all my lifts went up to!

I'd have to check my log when I started creatine, but I was a n00b when I first took and now I'm a pro-n00b.

that happens to me to when i cycle off

**bigpetefox** · 05-02-2007, 04:06 AM

CEE is a new animal, of course noone really understands its structure and how it's not so different from CrM..

First Question: Is the "Ethyl Ester" actually attached to the CrM molecule, and how is it done?

Second Question: How is creatine made to begin with?

Third Question: What happens to the "bond" after you absorb the creatine when it's CEE?

I got about $4500 worth of supps staring at me, I'll send the one who answers these questions a mystery pack..

wannabstrong · 05-02-2007, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpetefox

CEE is a new animal, of course noone really understands its structure and how it's not so different from CrM..

First Question: Is the "Ethyl Ester" actually attached to the CrM molecule, and how is it done?

Second Question: How is creatine made to begin with?

Third Question: What happens to the "bond" after you absorb the creatine when it's CEE?

I got about $4500 worth of supps staring at me, I'll send the one who answers these questions a mystery pack..

See if this answers some of your questions:

How is creatine made to begin with?

Creatine is either ingested through animal flesh (mainly cow) or manufactured internally by the “liver and kidneys from a few amino acids (glycine, arginine, and methionine)”
Creatine Supplementation in Athletes: Review

Why do we need additional supplementation?

“Picture your body having a "creatine tank". Our objective with creatine supplementation (whether CEE or Monohydrate) is to keep our tank full, given that we don't eat enough red meat and our body doesn't manufacture enough to keep the tank full.” --- Good illustration Quoted from Fireproof- Admin at Clutchfitness.com

Is the "Ethyl Ester" actually attached to the CrM molecule, and how is it done?

Yes it is attached. “Esters are organic compounds that are formed by esterification - the reaction of carboxylic acid and alcohols.”

*Ester is found in the fat tissue of animals, cee is known to be lipophyllic meaning its increases absorption.*

These are quotes from the CEE FAQ on bb.com

Quote:

“All substances that you put into your body will affect its operation. There are three ways that substances can affect a cells operation. They are:
1. Ligand binding to protein receptor sites.
2. Secondary messenger / metabotropic systems
3. Passive permeation of the cell wall via lipids
When a substance enters the body and affects the bodies operation, it is known as a ligand. The soma and dendrites of the cell have protein receptor sites to which ligands can bind. The process of a ligand binding with a receptor site is akin to a lock and key: only keys of a certain shape work with certain locks. When they work and cause the cells stimulation they are called agonists. When they block the cell from functioning they are called antagonists.

When a ligand binds with the receptor site of a target cell, the cell, in the simplest of cases, changes its shape, opens up its ion channels and changes its function. In so-called "secondary messenger" or metabotropic cells, the ligand binds with the receptor site and an internal protein known as a g-protein is released. This released protein then binds to an internal site inside of the cell, and then the cell changes its behavior by opening its ion channels. Cells that operate in this way are known as metabotropic cells because their operation requires metabolic energy.

Passive permeation is a process that describes the diffusion of a substance across a cell membrane through the use of lipids as transport mechanisms. Because no "work" is being done by the cell in this model, this model is called passive permeation.

Creatine monohydrate utilizes lipids to permeate the cell wall and enter the cell. Because of this, the esterification of creatine, and the presence of esters in animal fat tissue, becomes significant.

Creatine monohydrate is semi-lipopholic. This means that it inefficiently uses fat as a transport mechanism. The esterification of substances will increase their lipopholic abilities, and thus esterified creatine will use fat more efficiently to permeate the cell wall and exert its effects upon cellular function than its unesterified creatine monohydrate counterpart.”

Bodybuilding.com - Creatine Ethyl Ester Information and Product Listing! Creatine Ethyl Ester FAQ!

Cool old article on the Esterification of Creatine: http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/54/4/671.pdf note the date Oct. 9, 1922.

What happens to the "bond" after you absorb the creatine when it's CEE?

I’m not sure, but I would hypothesize that the ester will do its job helping transport the creatine and from there its job is done. Its there to help absorb. The actual bond... I don't know.

**bigpetefox** · 05-02-2007, 05:51 AM

Close enough, check your PM..

stonecoldtruth · 05-02-2007, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpetefox

Close enough, check your PM..

Giveaways to entice learning? I love it!

**bigpetefox** · 05-02-2007, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonecoldtruth

Giveaways to entice learning? I love it!

You didn't see the video, you were not aware.. I don't think anyone here is aware!!

Warning: Shocking Footage!

stonecoldtruth · 05-02-2007, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpetefox

You didn't see the video, you were not aware.. I don't think anyone here is aware!!

04-30-2007, 10:54 PM	#2
Succio IronMass Sponsor Join Date: May 2006 Location: beastville Posts: 1,935 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 95	Re: Why CrM > CEE great post, hope everyone reads this __________________ SUPPLEMENTS.NET REP

05-01-2007, 05:22 AM	#4
danman77220 Pro Stature Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,021 Recipes: 1 Rep Power: 50	Re: Why CrM > CEE I just started loading my first tub of mono... can't wait for it to kick in. How effective is mono, on average, for a first timer in terms of strength? __________________ Accomplishment tastes better than cheesecake. Stats(/goals): Age: 18 Weight: 193 BF%: 19%/8% Max Lifts B: Poop S: Pee D: Status: Gaining back strength and size after tonsillectomy My Training Log

05-01-2007, 09:52 PM	#9
ja_ke Pro Stature Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Allen Park, MI Posts: 207 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 7	Re: Why CrM > CEE i felt like i got MUCH better results from cee. also i didnt get bloated compared to gaining 10 lbs of water and looking like shit whenever i took mono.

05-02-2007, 04:06 AM	#11
bigpetefox The Resident Evil... Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 415 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 28	Re: Why CrM > CEE CEE is a new animal, of course noone really understands its structure and how it's not so different from CrM.. First Question: Is the "Ethyl Ester" actually attached to the CrM molecule, and how is it done? Second Question: How is creatine made to begin with? Third Question: What happens to the "bond" after you absorb the creatine when it's CEE? I got about $4500 worth of supps staring at me, I'll send the one who answers these questions a mystery pack.. __________________ Designer Athlete ActivaTe Xtreme addict

05-02-2007, 05:51 AM	#13
bigpetefox The Resident Evil... Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 415 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 28	Re: Why CrM > CEE Close enough, check your PM.. __________________ Designer Athlete ActivaTe Xtreme addict