Did Avant Labs truely fool us?

~~PROD1GY~~ · 02-05-2006, 06:16 AM

Avant Labs was always a nice reputable company but recently they have been going down. First with the Sesamin, and the whole capped and uncapped thing with Scivation, but non the less I have another concern now.

Leptigen.
This product was and still somewhat is pretty popular, but I think it is a scheme.
Let me explain before we jump to conclusions.
On Leptigen Mass, the idea is muscle gain with no fat gain, right?
It requires us to take LGM and eat at maintance.
Eating at maintance should cause no weight gain what so ever if done right.
Now, Take a look at the ingredients:

Quote:

Supplement Factions
PER SERVING:
Carbs = 0g
Sugars = 0g
Protein = 3g
Fat = 1g
Calories = 20

Sodium = 112 mg == 4%
Potassium = 0mg == 0%
Vitamin A = 0mg == 0%
Vitamin C = 113mg == 189%
Calcium = 0mg == 0%
Iron = 0mg == 0%
Biotin = .67 mg == 222%
Vitamin E = 107iu == 353%

Ingredients:
IP6, betaine HCl, creatine pyruvate, lecithin, inositol, l-leucine, l-histadine, l-taurine, sodium acetate, acetyl-l-carnitine, glucosamine HCl, ascorbyl palmitate, n-acetyl-cysteine, vitamin E acetate, alpha lipoic aicd, biotin, and 10% flavoring.

Firstly, I think we can predict the ingredients already.
They are listed in High to Low.
Lets start with Sodium, and by the RDA, you can tell there is 112 mg in it. This means that there is less than 112 mg of acetyl-l-carnitine, glucosamine HCl, ascorbyl palmitate, n-acetyl-cysteine, vitamin E acetate, alpha lipoic aicd, biotin.
As the dose of each one gets lower, the ones past it get even lower.
There is less then 120mg of al the ingrdients past Sodium. There should be a total of 3 grams of Leucine, Histadine, and Taurine mixed. Lecithin is here too, which I heard promotes better mood and overall feeling.
Betaine HCI, I am assuming is dosed at over 2 grams with IP6, and I'll tell you why very soon.

This product contains roughly 2 grams of Creatine Pyruvate per serving, as said by Loki on their message boards(on a post where somebody asked about it, because they get face bload from creatine.
Now, take 3-5 servings of that per day, it should put us at about 3-6 grams of Creatine Pyruvate.
So basically, creatine helps you appear bigger, while you gain no fat since you are maintance, and you walk away thinking its the product.
Seriously.
If you arent convinced yet, imagine taking Creatine(cell volumizer, meaning makes your muscles bigger), and eating at maintance while lifting.
What does this leave you at...

To Make Things Short For Those Who Are Too Lazy To Read,
reading the ingredient profile, you can tell that every ingredient in this product is underdosed besides Betaine and Creatine(and I believe there is synergy between these two as all the No2/Creatine combos have it, with creatine on little doses yet work better), which are both suppose to be well over 2 grams, as said by Loki on his boards.
You take 3-5 servings of Leptigen Mass per day, leaving you at 6-10 grams of Creatine, and about the equivalent in Betaine, with no excess calories from maintance, leading to no fat gain, and "bigger muscle appearance," which is the idea, but it is delivered throught a different method, not really leptin, and I think you can just buy some creatine and eat on maintance if you want that.

Also, notice how Leptigen Rebirth doesnt do much, except maybe for Leptigen Supression, and contains many questionable compounds such as synephrine and lacks the crea-pyruvate.

What is your opinion on this?

chlaxman · 02-05-2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PROD1GY

Avant Labs was always a nice reputable company but recently they have been going down. First with the Sesamin, and the whole capped and uncapped thing with Scivation, but non the less I have another concern now.

Did I miss something here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRODIGY

Firstly, I think we can predict the ingredients already.
They are listed in High to Low.

This is in regards to a proprietary blend IF they choose to follow guidelines, which they do not have to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PROD1GY

Lets start with Sodium, and by the RDA, you can tell there is 112 mg in it. This means that there is less than 112 mg of acetyl-l-carnitine, glucosamine HCl, ascorbyl palmitate, n-acetyl-cysteine, vitamin E acetate, alpha lipoic aicd, biotin.
As the dose of each one gets lower, the ones past it get even lower.
There is less then 120mg of al the ingrdients past Sodium.

When printing a label, it goes macronutrients at the top, minerals/vitamins next (sodium), then ingredients at the bottom. Notice how there is more Vitamin C than Sodium, but it is lower on the label. The blend at the bottom is a proprietary blend and has nothing to do with sodium.

Now the proprietary blend has around 5 grams in it, so you can break that down and call that underdosed if you want.

**skelooth** · 02-05-2006, 10:36 PM

I will not comment on avant's products, but I will comment that the supplement industry for the most part is saturated with 'junk'. Most of the products with high prices and fancy names are just proprietory blends of supplements most of us have already been using for years. Synephrine, creatine, arganine, taurine, tyrosine, etc.

I would wager that the majority of us who 'know what we're doing' already know that there is no cheaper or more effective way than to concoct our own supplement stacks. It's very rare (with the exception of a company or two) for anyone to come out with a truely ground breaking discovery in fitness nutrition.

There are no magic fat loss pills, and there are no non-hormonal magic lean mass gaining pills. It's just something we all need to accept and remember when considering new products.

chlaxman · 02-06-2006, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelooth

I will not comment on avant's products, but I will comment that the supplement industry for the most part is saturated with 'junk'. Most of the products with high prices and fancy names are just proprietory blends of supplements most of us have already been using for years. Synephrine, creatine, arganine, taurine, tyrosine, etc.

I would wager that the majority of us who 'know what we're doing' already know that there is no cheaper or more effective way than to concoct our own supplement stacks. It's very rare (with the exception of a company or two) for anyone to come out with a truely ground breaking discovery in fitness nutrition.

There are no magic fat loss pills, and there are no non-hormonal magic lean mass gaining pills. It's just something we all need to accept and remember when considering new products.

I totally agree and I have no problem with arguing over whether or not Leptigen is underdosed, just that many of the points brought up in the argument are faulty.

**skelooth** · 02-06-2006, 02:09 AM

yeah I refuse to comment on Avant Labs. The guys over there know a hell of a lot more about supplement science than I do. 'nuff said

comfortable_pants · 02-06-2006, 08:17 PM

this is the worst imitation of dwm2300000 ever

have you used leptigen before? i used leptigen mass while eating maintenance calories and had excellent results. imo, one of the best lean bulking products on the market

**jkeithc82** · 02-06-2006, 08:40 PM

I can understand where Max, ERRRRRRR Prod1gy is going here but this could have been done a little better. I would be interested to hear from AL on some of their "innovations". The Leptigen series has been a popluar line and many have had good results from it, so calling it a "scheme" is a little unfounded.

~~PROD1GY~~ · 02-06-2006, 10:13 PM

To the man who beat Anorexia: First off, i dont think Vitamin C is even in the ingredient list.
Secondly, Avant Labs has been going down since Scivation released Sesamin(same thing but capped and better promoted while cheaper).

To comfortable pants: I gained size on creatine while cutting if it matters. I assume you ate on maintance, which should cause no weight gain, and supplemented over 5 grams of creatine pyruvate(I assume bonded).

While Leptigen Mass has given people good results, I think it could be better. First off, its very decieving. The benefits of actually increasing Leptin(the actual hormone), would be great, and replace the idea of injection. As a matter of fact, I think Par Deus would be a millionare if he found this great synergy.
He used Pyruvate(meets all the claims of leptin), Creatine(gets you bigger), and ALA(underdosed to "mimick insulin"), to give people an illusional effect.
Just like Cell Tech can make you gain 10 pounds, this product can give you the gains sought for, but is very deceptive, expensive, and overhyped.

JKC: How is that L-Glutamine doing you>?

chlaxman · 02-07-2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PROD1GY

To the man who beat Anorexia: First off, i dont think Vitamin C is even in the ingredient list.
Secondly, Avant Labs has been going down since Scivation released Sesamin(same thing but capped and better promoted while cheaper).

Look at your list of ingredients, vitamin C is clearly marked.

I disagree with with the statement that AL is going down, but honestly it doesn't matter what I think in that regards (or any really).

I don't have a problem with quite a bit of your post, saying that it is underdosed is fine by me if you have arguments to back it up. However, most of your evidence is flat-out wrong.

beer20 · 02-07-2006, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PROD1GY

Avant Labs was always a nice reputable company but recently they have been going down. First with the Sesamin, and the whole capped and uncapped thing with Scivation, but non the less I have another concern now.

prod1gy are you referring to the color inconstancy of the AL sesamin?

**jkeithc82** · 02-07-2006, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxx

Secondly, Avant Labs has been going down since Scivation released Sesamin(same thing but capped and better promoted while cheaper).

I think this claim is unfounded, and purely speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxx

JKC: How is that L-Glutamine doing you>?

Doing well so far, I like the taste.

**krzna** · 02-07-2006, 05:20 AM

I gotta get loky or veliki over here.

Trick D · 02-07-2006, 03:43 PM

^^^^ What he said...

comfortable_pants · 02-07-2006, 05:37 PM

isn't this the same guy that was bashing thermolife over on bb.com?

comfortable_pants · 02-07-2006, 11:39 PM

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=21721

beer20 · 02-07-2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by comfortable_pants

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=21721

thanx for the link,i dont go to the avant forums as much as i use to....
they ripped him good on there...
he even called par deus "par douche",damn...
after browsing through some of those links i think im going to pick up some leptigen now.

~~PROD1GY~~ · 02-08-2006, 01:16 AM

Ight, theyr ripping me, but I dont care. I think these people should get the point.
No ****ing way in ****in hell does creatine and alcar increase shit.
ParDouche is still having trouble explaining me how it works.
All these people said is what Leptin does.. Thanks, now find me a way to increase it.
These people just bash, no point in talking to them..

**jkeithc82** · 02-08-2006, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beer20

thanx for the link,i dont go to the avant forums as much as i use to....
they ripped him good on there...
he even called par deus "par douche",damn...
after browsing through some of those links i think im going to pick up some leptigen now.

I don't visit AL nearly as often as I probably should. You basically got destroyed over there, and you aren't going to get sympathy over here either. You have no point and no references or backing to support this conclusion. One thing you will not do is bash other boards here, or other members.

hed · 02-08-2006, 01:26 AM

So when I asked if you were 16 and you said no it was a blatant lie Maxx. Cool

02-05-2006, 10:36 PM	#3
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,205 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	I will not comment on avant's products, but I will comment that the supplement industry for the most part is saturated with 'junk'. Most of the products with high prices and fancy names are just proprietory blends of supplements most of us have already been using for years. Synephrine, creatine, arganine, taurine, tyrosine, etc. I would wager that the majority of us who 'know what we're doing' already know that there is no cheaper or more effective way than to concoct our own supplement stacks. It's very rare (with the exception of a company or two) for anyone to come out with a truely ground breaking discovery in fitness nutrition. There are no magic fat loss pills, and there are no non-hormonal magic lean mass gaining pills. It's just something we all need to accept and remember when considering new products. __________________ R I P

02-06-2006, 02:09 AM	#5
skelooth eh heh heh Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Behind you Posts: 7,205 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 158	yeah I refuse to comment on Avant Labs. The guys over there know a hell of a lot more about supplement science than I do. 'nuff said __________________ R I P

02-06-2006, 08:17 PM	#6
comfortable_pants Pro Stature Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 260 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 9	this is the worst imitation of dwm2300000 ever have you used leptigen before? i used leptigen mass while eating maintenance calories and had excellent results. imo, one of the best lean bulking products on the market __________________

02-06-2006, 08:40 PM	#7
jkeithc82 Moderating Wizard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 698 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 14	I can understand where Max, ERRRRRRR Prod1gy is going here but this could have been done a little better. I would be interested to hear from AL on some of their "innovations". The Leptigen series has been a popluar line and many have had good results from it, so calling it a "scheme" is a little unfounded. __________________

02-07-2006, 05:20 AM	#12
krzna Dogg Crappin Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Olangapo-Zambales,Philipines Posts: 1,631 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 53	I gotta get loky or veliki over here. __________________ *DIET DEDICATION DP** www.surpassgenetics.com www.offshorebodybuilding.com www.thevipboard.com Team Beast Breeder colossus@beastbreeder.com

02-06-2006, 10:13 PM	#8
~~PROD1GY~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 386 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	To the man who beat Anorexia: First off, i dont think Vitamin C is even in the ingredient list. Secondly, Avant Labs has been going down since Scivation released Sesamin(same thing but capped and better promoted while cheaper). To comfortable pants: I gained size on creatine while cutting if it matters. I assume you ate on maintance, which should cause no weight gain, and supplemented over 5 grams of creatine pyruvate(I assume bonded). While Leptigen Mass has given people good results, I think it could be better. First off, its very decieving. The benefits of actually increasing Leptin(the actual hormone), would be great, and replace the idea of injection. As a matter of fact, I think Par Deus would be a millionare if he found this great synergy. He used Pyruvate(meets all the claims of leptin), Creatine(gets you bigger), and ALA(underdosed to "mimick insulin"), to give people an illusional effect. Just like Cell Tech can make you gain 10 pounds, this product can give you the gains sought for, but is very deceptive, expensive, and overhyped. JKC: How is that L-Glutamine doing you>?

02-07-2006, 05:37 PM	#14
comfortable_pants Pro Stature Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 260 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 9	isn't this the same guy that was bashing thermolife over on bb.com? __________________

02-07-2006, 11:39 PM	#15
comfortable_pants Pro Stature Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 260 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 9	http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=21721 __________________

02-08-2006, 01:16 AM	#17
~~PROD1GY~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 386 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	Ight, theyr ripping me, but I dont care. I think these people should get the point. No **ing way in **in hell does creatine and alcar increase shit. ParDouche is still having trouble explaining me how it works. All these people said is what Leptin does.. Thanks, now find me a way to increase it. These people just bash, no point in talking to them..

02-08-2006, 01:26 AM	#19
hed Pro Stature Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 396 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 7	So when I asked if you were 16 and you said no it was a blatant lie Maxx. Cool __________________ 5'8" Jan. 2005 - ~280 lbs.. (LipidFX) 01/02/06: 214.5 - 01/31/06: 211.5 (Phera-Plex)02/06/06: 214.0 - 04/03/06: 225.0 (Melting Point)04/10/06: 220.5 - 05/15/06: 207.5 Currently: Trying to maintain what I've got while working 50+ hours a week with a less than optimal diet. LipidFX Log Phera-Plex Log Melting Point/Basic Cuts Log