Working the Core - Page 2

ZackMurphy · 01-31-2006, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

I must disagree with most of the points in this thread.

1. The core is a well defined system, incorporating the transverse abdominal muscles, thoraco-lumbar fascia and erectores, multifidus muscles, diaphragm and pelvic floor.

2. The core system, or core stabilisers, act to reduce load on the lumbar spine in flexion, prevent shear stresses on the discs, stabilise the spine at segmental levels and increase the torsional rigidity of the spine.

3. Muscles that cause movement of the spine are not part of the core system, with the exception of the erectores / multifidus, which act isometrically as part of the core.

4. To develop the core, you must first learn activation of the transverse abdominus. This usually requires training. Pilates and many martial arts have used this activation.

5. Bridges, planks and superman exercises most certainly DO NOT contribute to the development of core strength. They may be adjunct exercises once core activation has been learned, but are generally not functional progressions. Many of these exercises use other abdominals, or utilise the erectores in a non-stabilising manner.

I think what we have here is a variation in the usage of the term "core". It's being used in the US these days to include everything AFR is mentioning, and as more than just a mere stabilization system.

In fact, I just came back from a conference that covered the core almost exclusively. Can't say how "core" was intended to be used, trained, or assessed with your training in your field in your country, but in the US it's much more inclusive, a la AFR's posts and links.

Not saying it's the only way to look at it, but lately, "core" is a much less precise term than as you're applying it.

~~Fresch~~ · 03-23-2006, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

I think what we have here is a variation in the usage of the term "core". It's being used in the US these days to include everything AFR is mentioning, and as more than just a mere stabilization system.

In fact, I just came back from a conference that covered the core almost exclusively. Can't say how "core" was intended to be used, trained, or assessed with your training in your field in your country, but in the US it's much more inclusive, a la AFR's posts and links.

Not saying it's the only way to look at it, but lately, "core" is a much less precise term than as you're applying it.

One day we will educate you guys!

**A.FreeRadical** · 03-23-2006, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

One day we will educate you guys!

Perhaps, but for now...

*

~~Fresch~~ · 03-26-2006, 11:48 PM

I notice here that most Personal Trainers do not seem to have an adequate grasp of the concept of "core", and have a similarly diluted view of it as you are describing. In the physiotherapy field over here, where "core" work has been heavily studied for some 15 years, it is a very defined concept, and includes the multifidus and ytranverse abdominus muscle pairing, the diaphragm and pelvic floor, and the extensores in a static role as passive elements in the system.

The core provides stability to the lumbar spine and shares some of the loading placed on the lumbar spine (up to 30% of the load).

The core system is said to slightly decompress the spine and provides a slight extensor force to the spine.

The obliques and rectus compress the spine and provide a flexor force to the spine, so are not considered as part of the core.

ZackMurphy · 03-27-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

I notice here that most Personal Trainers do not seem to have an adequate grasp of the concept of "core", and have a similarly diluted view of it as you are describing. In the physiotherapy field over here, where "core" work has been heavily studied for some 15 years, it is a very defined concept, and includes the multifidus and ytranverse abdominus muscle pairing, the diaphragm and pelvic floor, and the extensores in a static role as passive elements in the system.

The core provides stability to the lumbar spine and shares some of the loading placed on the lumbar spine (up to 30% of the load).

The core system is said to slightly decompress the spine and provides a slight extensor force to the spine.

The obliques and rectus compress the spine and provide a flexor force to the spine, so are not considered as part of the core.

We get it, we get it. The issue is not our "dilluted view" but simply an alternate (more "in") use of the phrase "core". In the straight kiniesiological and PT view of what core is, it's obviously quite specific. But in the field of healthy people not requiring specific rehab or those wishing to simply improve their physical condition, we expand the "core" to include some of the other surrounding groups essential to the basic movements.

You're right that most trainers don't have the faintest clue of the big picture and simply train everyone based on the most elementary bodybuilding techniques, but that's a symptom of a bad gym, not a national lack of understanding.

**A.FreeRadical** · 03-27-2006, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

We get it, we get it.

hahahaha, indeed.

*

A_N_91 · 04-25-2006, 11:45 AM

Awesome stuff A.FreeRadical. My lower back kills me everytime I do an ab exercise and most others. I've been doing these for a week everyday and I feel better just getting out of bed already.

~~Fresch~~ · 07-23-2006, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

We get it, we get it. The issue is not our "dilluted view" but simply an alternate (more "in") use of the phrase "core". In the straight kiniesiological and PT view of what core is, it's obviously quite specific. But in the field of healthy people not requiring specific rehab or those wishing to simply improve their physical condition, we expand the "core" to include some of the other surrounding groups essential to the basic movements.

You're right that most trainers don't have the faintest clue of the big picture and simply train everyone based on the most elementary bodybuilding techniques, but that's a symptom of a bad gym, not a national lack of understanding.

Well, that is a serious dilution of the concept of core. For starters, the core does not CAUSE any movement. It is a system that works isometrically to resist movement. As such, it is quite limited in what it includes, and certainly does not include muscles that cause movement. In fact, saying that you are including surrounding muscle groups has me wondering if the underlying concepts of core are understood at all.

Whether people are healthy or not, the training of the core and the need to develop it is still the same. And the need to understand the system to as to train it properly, safely and effectively is the same.

I think a comprehensive diatribe on this topic is required.

ZackMurphy · 07-25-2006, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

I think a comprehensive diatribe on this topic is required.

Oh, sweet Jesus, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

Well, that is a serious dilution of the concept of core. For starters, the core does not CAUSE any movement. It is a system that works isometrically to resist movement.

But to TRAIN the core only isometrically would be astronomically stupid, so for you to balk at the term "movement" shows me that we still have a fundamental misunderstanding here.

You must train the core through a variety of contractions and planes of movement, and you must train it in the context of the muscles around it. Hence, my expansion of the muscles that can be considered relevant to core training. Am I diluting the core, watering it down to include other parts? Obviously, yes. But it's not dillusion - I'm simply expanding the training spectrum to avoid unnecessary and silly over-focus on isolationist training tactics.

I know you know everything, and you're God's gift to whatever it is you do for a living, and I'm sure you're good at it, but you need to expand your view here.

~~Fresch~~ · 10-08-2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

I know you know everything, and you're God's gift to whatever it is you do for a living, and I'm sure you're good at it, but you need to expand your view here.

What a childish, immature and petulant comment.

~~Fresch~~ · 10-08-2006, 03:25 AM

Lets see here.

In the early post, a series of exercises are linked. The links have instructions which tell you to cough to activate your transverse abdminis. Well, the whole things falls over here, because coughing will NOT cause an activation of your TA.

With this fundamental error in understanding of the core, it is hard to progress to the further fundamental erors in the statements made.

Also, without using a device such as a pressure bio-feedback, there is no way to assess the stability of the pelvis during the exercises, and no way to check that the TA has been activated of being used at all.

BTW, we here in Australia have been developing ways to accurately determine whether there is TA activation, assess its effectiveness, grade it and progress exercises with feedback as to the function of the TA for about 10 years. We have also developed world first technology of using real-time ultrasound imagaing to verify activation of the TA and multifidus.

And yes, we do know everything on this matter.

**A.FreeRadical** · 10-08-2006, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

...And yes, we do know everything on this matter.

I have no doubt. The core (however we define it) is very important. Ye, who knows all, please enlighten us. We all know that Australians rule.

*

~~Fresch~~ · 10-14-2006, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.FreeRadical

I have no doubt. The core (however we define it) is very important. Ye, who knows all, please enlighten us. We all know that Australians rule.

*

This could take time and be a long article!!!

I am open to option B which is to answer specific questions on the topic, rather than give a long-winded dissetation!

~~Fresch~~ · 11-27-2006, 12:15 AM

Sorry all, looks like the Mods here have brought with them all the bad aspects of bb.com, so I am off.

I will find somewhere else to post and let you know.

**bubba g** · 11-27-2006, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fresch

Sorry all, looks like the Mods here have brought with them all the bad aspects of bb.com, so I am off.

I will find somewhere else to post and let you know.

Master Of Puppets · 11-30-2006, 10:57 AM

Wait so, why did Fresch get banned?

MOP

~~Daniel~~ · 01-22-2008, 06:09 AM

Wow! a lots of informative instruction.Thnks

11-30-2006, 10:57 AM	#46
Master Of Puppets Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: my house Posts: 2,000 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 46	Wait so, why did Fresch get banned? MOP __________________ Goals: Be strong.

01-22-2008, 06:09 AM	#47
~~Daniel~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 8 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	Re: Working the Core Wow! a lots of informative instruction.Thnks

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03-26-2006, 11:48 PM	#34
~~Fresch~~ Banned Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 195 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	I notice here that most Personal Trainers do not seem to have an adequate grasp of the concept of "core", and have a similarly diluted view of it as you are describing. In the physiotherapy field over here, where "core" work has been heavily studied for some 15 years, it is a very defined concept, and includes the multifidus and ytranverse abdominus muscle pairing, the diaphragm and pelvic floor, and the extensores in a static role as passive elements in the system. The core provides stability to the lumbar spine and shares some of the loading placed on the lumbar spine (up to 30% of the load). The core system is said to slightly decompress the spine and provides a slight extensor force to the spine. The obliques and rectus compress the spine and provide a flexor force to the spine, so are not considered as part of the core.

04-25-2006, 11:45 AM	#37
A_N_91 Pro Stature Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 849 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 11	Awesome stuff A.FreeRadical. My lower back kills me everytime I do an ab exercise and most others. I've been doing these for a week everyday and I feel better just getting out of bed already.

10-08-2006, 03:25 AM	#41
~~Fresch~~ Banned Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 195 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	Lets see here. In the early post, a series of exercises are linked. The links have instructions which tell you to cough to activate your transverse abdminis. Well, the whole things falls over here, because coughing will NOT cause an activation of your TA. With this fundamental error in understanding of the core, it is hard to progress to the further fundamental erors in the statements made. Also, without using a device such as a pressure bio-feedback, there is no way to assess the stability of the pelvis during the exercises, and no way to check that the TA has been activated of being used at all. BTW, we here in Australia have been developing ways to accurately determine whether there is TA activation, assess its effectiveness, grade it and progress exercises with feedback as to the function of the TA for about 10 years. We have also developed world first technology of using real-time ultrasound imagaing to verify activation of the TA and multifidus. And yes, we do know everything on this matter.

11-27-2006, 12:15 AM	#44
~~Fresch~~ Banned Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 195 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	Sorry all, looks like the Mods here have brought with them all the bad aspects of bb.com, so I am off. I will find somewhere else to post and let you know.