Pumpatron

I was just wondering if chest dips are an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY where working chest is concerned. I can just not do them using proper form, meaning I just CAN'T, no matter how hard I try, lean forward. Is there a trick to leaning forward or something?

Also, I was thinking of using this routine for 4 weeks:

3x8 Incline Neutral-Grip Bench Press
3x8 Flat/Decline Neutral-Grip Bench Press (Rotate Every Week)
3x8 Flat/Decline Chest Flyes (Rotate Every Week)

2 exercises for lower & 1 for upper.

And then switching it round for the following routine:

3x8 Incline Flyes
3x8 Incline Dumbbell Bench Press
3x8 Decline/Flat Dumbbell Bench Press (Rotate Every Week)

2 for upper and 1 for lower

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought of doing this because in the first routine there is more focus on the lower chest and in the 2nd routine there is more focus on the upper chest.

- This is because in the 1st routine there are more lower chest exercises & in the 2nd there are more upper chest exercises - Is this a bad idea?

- Should I be doing the same amount of volume for each part of chest every month instead of splitting it up into more upper 1 month and more lower the next?

- Should I be doing more volume for lower than upper seeing as it is bigger? If this is the case then Instead of doing incline flyes in the 2nd workout I'll swap them for chest dips (I'll try and try some more to get my form correct ). This means that in each of the 2 workouts I'll be doing 2 exercises for lower and 1 for upper.

I know there are a lot of questions here but I'd be really grateful if people could look through them and see if you could come up with some answers - Thanks, Pump!

__________________
Trainee Under Myself!

"2 Mice Fell Into A Bucket Of Cream. The 1st Mouse Gave Up Trying To Get Out And Drowned. The 2nd Mouse Was Determined Not To Give In And So Struggled And Struggled For A Good 10 Minutes. All This Struggling Churned The Cream Into Butter Which Allowed The Mouse To Escape From The Bucket"

Now Ask Yourself... Which Mouse Are YOU?

DarkFalcon

I have to head off to bed but if no one gives you a good answer by tomorrow I'll make sure I do.

johnsbod

I'll chime in, but I'm sure DF and others will have other feedback for you. Personally I think 4 weeks it not enough time before switching it up. I like to switch up my routine now and then, but not after 4 weeks. Give yourself some time to improve each week on the exercises and don't alternate from week to week either.

Right now for chest I'm doing:

• Incline Dumbell Press
• Decline Barbell Bench Press
• A-Trainer Cable Flyes

Flat bench is not necessary if you are a bodybuilder, and if you really want to stick with a flat movement I'd recommend using dumbells for better chest development. I'd also recommend the A-Trainer Flyes. Basically, they are cable flyes with your palms facing your head (puts more emphasis on the pecs).

If you want to keep flat bench, you could do:

• Incline Dumbell or Barbell Bench Press, 2 sets
• Flat Dumbell Press, 2 sets
• Decline Dumbell, Decline Barbell Bench Press, or Dips (leaning forward) 2 sets
• A-Trainer Flyes or some other similar movement, 2 sets

__________________
Wenn Sie Deutsch sprechen können, posten Sie hier.

Misc Perv #69

powerman2000

I never do the exact same workout 2x in a row.

__________________
Don't forget to periodize
Best BP 507 lbs *competitive*
Best Squat 705 lbs *competitive*
Best DL 650 lbs *competitive*


Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do.

My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

johnsbod

That's why I use words like "personally" and "I" in my posts when giving my opinion.

Ya, I know a lot of people that train that way, but I personally don't like to do it.

__________________
Wenn Sie Deutsch sprechen können, posten Sie hier.

Misc Perv #69

powerman2000

I didn't start growing again until I switched to my current method. Maybe in another 11 years you'll switch too.

__________________
Don't forget to periodize
Best BP 507 lbs *competitive*
Best Squat 705 lbs *competitive*
Best DL 650 lbs *competitive*


Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do.

My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

Apootheosis

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/...raining-01.htm

it starts 6 pages down, ends maybe 2 pages later.

*****************************************
When beginning weight training for the first time, it is important to understand that the increases in strength are primarily a factor of learning and coordination. An individual can even experience a neurological increase in strength within the first training session. In addition to novice lifters, exercises that are new to an experienced lifter will also produce rapid gains in strength do to neurological learning. All bodybuilders go through a series of chronological stages of adaptation:

Increases in inter-muscular coordination. This involves an increased cooperation between different muscle groups leading to an increase in the efficiency of coordinated movement. This happens during the first 2-3 weeks of using a new exercise or new routine.

Increases in intra-muscular coordination. This involves an increased cooperation between fibers within a muscle leading to an increase in force production. This continues for the following 4-6 weeks.

Increases in muscular hypertrophy. This involves adaptive restructuring of the muscle tissue leading to a functional increase in mass of the muscle. The muscle adds more contractile elements and increases its structural integrity. Additional connective tissue is also laid down increasing the tissue’s resistance to injury. This form of adaptation becomes prominent from 2 - 5 months after the initiation of adaptive resistance training.

Stagnation. (From 5 months on) The rate of structural and functional adaptation now begins to slow dramatically. For continued growth at this stage it is necessary to determine whether the stagnation is due to a lack of strength , a lack of volume and intensity, or a lack of the bodies current adaptive reserves (CAR) which last about 18-22 weeks (Zhikharevich,1976 & Sirenko,1980; sited by Siff & Verkhoshansky,1996). It is at this time that scientifically based training principles should be applied and a highly qualified coach be employed if necessary. Without the proper methods being applied at the onset of stagnation, injury and burnout will be the result of haphazard trial-and-error approaches to training.

Although an amateurish approach to training will produce significant gains in the beginner, this is not in the best interest of the beginning bodybuilder or strength athlete because without the proper sequence of training methods, injury and overuse problems can become a chronic nuisance for the individual.

The Specificity of Adaptation
At first thought I was inclined to break down this article into sections dealing only with repetitions, sets, and frequency. But as I began to really ponder what was lacking in the average bodybuilder’s understanding of training, it was clear that a more esoteric approach might be more valuable. I am going to assume that most of you have already spent some time in the gym. From doing this you have experienced some gains in strength and size. Those of you interested in exaggerated muscle growth have probably even experienced a considerable number of different weight training routines. Assuming that you have had this experience I think it would be most valuable to also include those issues that are not usually included in books written about weight training. These issues include the potential for hypertrophy to cause negative effects on muscle recovery and function. A topic that most bodybuilders don’t really want to hear but it can effect them nonetheless by inhibiting continual progress. Any bodybuilder or strength athlete that is interested in long term involvement in their sport must be aware of all the issues that might prevent continued progress and plan their training accordingly.

Specificity
The first principle upon which all adaptation is based is "specificity". This means that the organism, or in this case "muscle", will adapt in a manner specific to the demands that are placed upon it. As an example, if you train with reps ranging from 8-10, you will become more proficient at performing sets consisting of "8-10" reps, leaving your potential to perform sets at greater or lesser work loads underdeveloped. The neurological, metabolic, and mechanical demands placed on the muscle to perform strong, repeated contractions for 30-40 seconds of total work will cause an increase in the work potential of this muscle to perform the aforementioned set. These adaptations will take place in three areas, namely: neurological; involving motor units, metabolic; involving "fuel management" within the cell and body, and structural; involving the physical structures of the muscle.

Neurological Adaptation to Resistance Exercise
As an untrained individual begins a strength training program for the first time they will experience quite dramatic increases in muscular strength. These improvements in strength will continue almost linearly for about 8-12 weeks. The dominating mechanism of these initial strength gains are neurological in nature(Morianti,1979; Sale,1988). These adaptations take place with or without increases in muscle cross sectional area (CSA). Muscle hypertrophy usually begins after 4-6 weeks of training while the contributions of neural adaptations to increases in strength slowly diminish. Some ways that a muscle may undergo neural adaptation include cross-education, increases in electromyographic (EMG) activity, reflex potentiation, alterations in the co-contraction of antagonist muscles, and improved coordination of synergist muscles. The nature of the changes are determined by the nature of the stimulus. If you regularly allow only very slow contractions of a given muscle, that muscle will improve its ability to contract slowly, at times at the expense of its ability to contract rapidly and powerfully. If you train a muscle for endurance, it will improve its ability to use slow twitch fibers and even begin to change the contractile properties of other fibers in favor of endurance-type activity. All this due to chronic, and specific neural activity patterns.

Metabolic Adaptations
There are three enzyme complexes that may be involved in adaptation to weight training. The phosphocreatine-ATP complex, the glycolysis/glycogenolysis complex, and the lipolysis complex. The research in this area is limited as far as direct application to bodybuilding. For our purposes only a brief discussion is required.

Phosphagens are very important in high intensity muscle activity. The energy requirements of short duration, high intensity exercise are met primarily through the recycling of ATP and phosphocreatine (PC). Despite the relative importance of this system to performance, relatively little definitive research has been done to elucidate whether this system undergoes significant adaptation. The research which exists suggests that phosphagen and related enzyme adaptations are effected specifically by the type, duration and structure of resistance training. Nevertheless, there is still no clear understanding nor consensus as to the extent of adaptation as a result of resistance training.

Cross sectional data (Tesch, 1989) support that belief that resistance training does indeed increase the activity of phosphagens. Data gathered from a cross section of bodybuilders, Olympic lifters and power lifters indicate that myokinase activity is greater in these groups than in non-trained individuals. It is not certain whether this is a result of a true training effect, sample bias, or just a genetic predisposition of elite strength athletes towards elevated myokinase activity. A subsequent study performed by the same researcher (Tesch,1990) showed no increase in enzyme activity levels in resistance trained men over twelve weeks. Clearly more research is needed before any claims can be made about ATP related adaptations to resistance exercise.

Although glycogen metabolism is important during resistance training it is usually not the limiting factor in strength production unless prior glycogen depletion is present. Increases in glycogen storage are not seen in training programs lasting less than 6 weeks (Grimby, 1973). However training programs lasting 20 weeks have shown significant increases in intramuscular glycogen storage (MacDougall,1977). Tesch (1986) recorded significantly elevated glycogen stores in a sample of bodybuilders. The results of these studies is obviously effected by acute dietary intake of carbohydrates yet evidence testifies of the ability of "chronic" resistance training to increase glycogen storage "capacity". Studies involving diabetics and resistance exercise also point out the fact that non-oxidative glucose disposal is increased with high intensity training (Eriksson,1998). These changes in glucose disposal involve hexokinase activity, phosphofructokinase (PFK) and glycogen synthase activity along with enhanced GLUT-4 activity.

It has been shown that lipids do in fact contribute fuel substrate during high intensity exercise (Essen,1990). The role of lipids may be greater during exhaustive high volume training typical of that used by bodybuilders as opposed to power lifting methods (Dudley,1988). However, changes in structures related lipid metabolism as a consequence of resistive training are difficult to discern because as the volume of the cell increases the density of mitochondria decreases. In addition, training that increases fiber hypertrophy appears to dilute endogenous lipid density within fibers.
***********************************************



I change-up my workouts too, but only after 7-8 weeks or so.

aqua-beowulf

I try and change my routines only after they become stale, or I plateau.

Aftershock

I consider dips to be a very important staple in a chest routine; however, calling them an "ABSOLUTE NECCASSITY" can be a stretch for just about everything.

I'd practice and do them, though.

__________________
sholiz: im drunk and i want some fruit loops

Aftershock: no i know you need to maintain a certain level of professionalism on ironmass
Aftershock: how easily i can destroy that...
sholiz: just in appearance

`````````\|||/
`````````(o o)
,--ooO-----(_)-------------,
|````````` Aftershock ````|
|```````````is```````````|
|``````````sexy````````` |
'--------------Ooo----------'
````````|__|__|
`````````||| ||
````````ooO Ooo

A.FreeRadical

I agree, but would say it a little differently. There are lots of ways to skin a cat. Some better than others. For building a chest, dips and weighted dips are to chest muscles, what pullups and weighted pullups are to back muscles. Both dips and pullups are efficient ways to build these major muscles.

I give weighted dips priority over doing flat bench presses, but I still do DB flat bench presses.

As to how to do dips, practice makes perfect. First master the tricep dips (vertical up and down). After that, experiment with putting your chest out and legs behind. Try it with head down and head up. Try feet in different positions. Eventually you will get a position that hits your chest optimally. When you do, you will love doing dips.

When you are ready, buy a Grizzly belt and do weighted dips.

*

__________________


"Is it going to be the red pill or the blue pill, Neo? The red pill will answer the question 'What is the Matrix?'

Choose carefully. Remember, all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more."

Ron Paul for President, 2008

A.FreeRadical ...the Epicurean bodybuilder

Height: 5'9", Age: 62,
My last high on 2/1/2006 was 196 lbs.
My last low on 8/08/2006 was 167.5 lbs.

Cutting until I am lean
Starting weight: 190 lbs. bodyfat: 19.7%
November 27th: 183 lbs. bodyfat: 18.3% bodyfat
Goal Weight: 176 lbs with no more than 10% bodyfat

My recipe collection

EME

It's amazing how we all have our own things that work for us.
It just shows you that there is no perfect routine for everyone. You have to experiment and find what works for YOU.

Personally, chest is my best bodypart, and I NEVER do chest dips and I NEVER do decline anything.

I built my chest with years of heavy flat bench press, incline bench press, flat flyes, and flat dumbbell presses.

These days, my entire off season chest routine is comprised of

3 Sets Incline Bench
3 Sets Flat Flyes
3 Sets Low Cable Flyes ( Similar to cross overs, with no "Cross Over" just a tight squeeze in the middle )

I believe in heavy basic movements to build mass... but I'm old school when it comes to routines. I don't do anything very fancy.

- EME

__________________
PhysiqueFXonline - Online Nutrition and Training with Michael and Kendra Elias:

www.PhysiqueFXonline.com

www.MichaelandKendra.com


My wife, and IFBB Fitness Pro Kendra Elias' personal site:
www.KendraElias.com



Proud member of Team ALR:
www.ALRIndustries.com

DarkFalcon

When Bertil Fox told me dips were the key to his massive chest I listened! I love dips, they are so good at increasing your overall pressing strength it's not even funny!

powerman2000

EME, you do look great and all your years of hard work is evident. But, how do you know that you wouldn't reach new levels of success by leaving your comfort zone and start thinking outside the box when it comes to your training?

__________________
Don't forget to periodize
Best BP 507 lbs *competitive*
Best Squat 705 lbs *competitive*
Best DL 650 lbs *competitive*


Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do.

My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

EME

Hey Powerman,

Honestly, I don't have any problem with new training techniques. I played on a Div. 1 football team and we had a great strength coach who had lots of novel training methods. I enjoyed them, and made progress using them.

I have just found that the big, basic movements, have, and continue to work well for me.

Even after 20 years of training, I added 18 lbs of Lean Body Mass in the last year....Without hormones, or any illegal supplements.

Man, as long as I'm able to keep doing that....I'm going to keep doing it!

- EME

__________________
PhysiqueFXonline - Online Nutrition and Training with Michael and Kendra Elias:

www.PhysiqueFXonline.com

www.MichaelandKendra.com


My wife, and IFBB Fitness Pro Kendra Elias' personal site:
www.KendraElias.com



Proud member of Team ALR:
www.ALRIndustries.com

Apootheosis

yeah, studies have shone decline db bench press is actually the most anabolic out of the bench variations, and the way the motion is performed, one can actually press more on the decline than on flat or incline. Cant be knockin it if you havent tried it yet EME

__________________
lawlz

powerman2000