ATG Squat Question...

Hybrid · 12-28-2005, 10:45 PM

I've switched from paralell to ATG squats recently, and I'm enjoying them alot more. They hit my quads and lower back alot better than paralell. Here's my questions...

1)I go down smoothly, but whenever I push up I seem to be a little on my toes. Not alot, or unsafely, just my heels a tad bit off the ground. Should I be concerned about this?

2)Should I just go down as if I was going paralell, but keep going down? This is what I do currently, and I'd imagine it's what I'm supposed to do, however, I want to make sure.

3)Sometimes I can't seem to get off the bottom position (you know, where my ass is to the ground, or grass) and I push up but can't get my knees going up. I sometimes take a deep breath and try again and succeed, and it's almost as if I was pumping a quarterback fake (if you get my drift). I'd imagine this is alright, but again, I'm just making sure.

Thanks!

**EME** · 12-28-2005, 10:49 PM

Your form and strength at the bottom will get better with practice.

Make sure you aren't going to heavy until you really get your form solid.

Coming forward on your toes is a problem. That usually happens when you are leaning to far forward, or if your back is bent over too much. If you ever have a bunch of weight on the bar and do that, it can be bad.

Again, keep the weights low until you can really get that form solid, and keep your heels flat on the floor.

The key to proper squats ( and everything else really ) is learing how to do them right at the beginning so that you don't develop bad habits.

The weight will come...get the form right now. :nosthumbs

- EME

**bubba g** · 12-28-2005, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hybrid

I've switched from paralell to ATG squats recently, and I'm enjoying them alot more. They hit my quads and lower back alot better than paralell. Here's my questions...

1)I go down smoothly, but whenever I push up I seem to be a little on my toes. Not alot, or unsafely, just my heels a tad bit off the ground. Should I be concerned about this?

2)Should I just go down as if I was going paralell, but keep going down? This is what I do currently, and I'd imagine it's what I'm supposed to do, however, I want to make sure.

3)Sometimes I can't seem to get off the bottom position (you know, where my ass is to the ground, or grass) and I push up but can't get my knees going up. I sometimes take a deep breath and try again and succeed, and it's almost as if I was pumping a quarterback fake (if you get my drift). I'd imagine this is alright, but again, I'm just making sure.

Thanks!

You definalty want to keep the weight on your heels, if not you need to make some adjustments...

That pump fake thing you discribed sounds like you are coming up slightly, dropping back down and kind of bouncing at the bottom which allows you to then get the rep. This is very dangerous if that is the case. I would say lower the weights a little bit, and correct your form.

It souds like mostly a flexability problem. Do some stretches every day, go to the bottom position of the squat with no weight, and then lean forward to get a good stretch.. do it every day for like 3 minutes and in a couple weeks you will notice a big improvement...

Also make sure you keep your knees flexed through the whole range of motion. Do not relax them at the bottom of the lift... This is very very important...

Hybrid · 12-28-2005, 10:59 PM

It's not like a pump to help. I push up from the bottom and I try to get it up, but it just won't go. So I stop at the bottom where I'm real low, wait about 2-3 seconds taking in a big as breath as possible and push up again. Is that still bad?

I thought the weight on the toes might be bad. I guess I'll drop the poundages for the next workout and really concentrate on form. It doesn't happen all the time, just usually when I'm really tired. Usually toes are flat for the first 4-5 reps.

**bubba g** · 12-28-2005, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hybrid

It's not like a pump to help. I push up from the bottom and I try to get it up, but it just won't go. So I stop at the bottom where I'm real low, wait about 2-3 seconds taking in a big as breath as possible and push up again. Is that still bad?

I thought the weight on the toes might be bad. I guess I'll drop the poundages for the next workout and really concentrate on form. It doesn't happen all the time, just usually when I'm really tired. Usually toes are flat for the first 4-5 reps.

It is still bad if you are letting the knees relax in that bottom position. If you are keeping them flexed, and tight then you should be ok..

I think all your problems will be solved by lowering your weights a little...

Hybrid · 12-28-2005, 11:49 PM

I'd imagine the part where I'm stuck at the bottom would occur eventually once I started going to failure. But I will try to correct being on my toes.

ZackMurphy · 12-29-2005, 12:49 AM

Good suggestions so far. So some small things to add....

To help keep you on your heels, make sure you're looking up - head up, eyes up on the ascent. This helps keep me more upright and from bending forward too much.

Also, if you're doing good mornings at all, lay off them for a while. I find they're spectacular for low back strength, but they teach my body to lean forward too much. I would work on light front squats and light back squats for form until this is cleared up for you. Nothing too far forward.

And while you're practicing this, work with your foot position a little bit. My feet need to come in substantially when I'm going ATG, compared to a normal or sumo stance for my regular squats. Adjust foot width and toe position until you feel the right groove. Do this with just the bar or the bar and some 25s so you can get a nice feel. I do this every few months just to refresh myself. Just did this on Saturday, in fact, before a squat workout.

Usually to find a good foot position, stand "at ease" with your feet at a normal standing width. Then pick up one foot and raise the knee to your chest and set it back down. And leave it there - don't adjust it. Then do the same with the other foot. Whatever position the feet land in naturally - this is your (for 99% of people) comfort zone for ATG/full squats. Some people adjust from there, but that's guaranteed to be a happy place for your hips and knees. It can be an enlightening adjustment to make. I do that with every new client when we start squatting.

Just some food for thought.

**spytech** · 12-29-2005, 04:19 AM

Another tip: make it a point to try to point your elbows at the wall in front of you. This will force you to keep your back arched and in proper position.

ZackMurphy · 12-29-2005, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spytech

Another tip: make it a point to try to point your elbows at the wall in front of you. This will force you to keep your back arched and in proper position.

That can leave the bar vulnerable to slide too far down the back, which will force the weight forward again.

Most squat teachers would have you try to opposite, to point your elbows back to help lock the bar in position. The bar can a little higher on the back than in a "low" back squat, but this in turn better allows the body to remain upright, as with the traditional O-lifting position.

In this "high" position, the bar would be slightly above C-7 (that little bump on your lower neck-upper trap region), but still below the neck, so you're safe and secure, and not forced forward.

IMHO.

**spytech** · 12-29-2005, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

That can leave the bar vulnerable to slide too far down the back, which will force the weight forward again.

Most squat teachers would have you try to opposite, to point your elbows back to help lock the bar in position. The bar can a little higher on the back than in a "low" back squat, but this in turn better allows the body to remain upright, as with the traditional O-lifting position.

In this "high" position, the bar would be slightly above C-7 (that little bump on your lower neck-upper trap region), but still below the neck, so you're safe and secure, and not forced forward.

IMHO.

I think this one comes down to how the user carries the bar. I've had a handful of people try this one, all with great success (including myself). I used to carry the bar pretty high (about where you mention), but after a minor back injury (where I lost the weight forward on a squat) I retrained myself to carry it lower, with elbows forward. So far so good...

Vegeto · 12-29-2005, 05:25 AM

I might suggest that you practice standing on these three points on your feet. (shown in picture). If you do it right, the center of your foot should compress to the floor a little, and almost feel like a suction cup. Once you can do this, squatting barefoot on concrete can be comfortable. <-- (Not reccomended though) With this technique, you are driving through the heels, but the force is transfered evenly through the whole foot.

I haven't quite got the right foot down pat yet, but the left is pretty nice.

Hybrid · 12-29-2005, 11:16 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I think also the fact that I wear Cross Trainers when I workout might hinder me a bit. I was told to use flat shoes when I squat, but don' have a pair... But all really good suggestions. I'll do alot of 95lb ATG squats next leg day (like 7-8 sets) to burn the legs but get my form down good!!!

jram · 12-29-2005, 11:57 AM

Hey Hybrid;

Lot of good advice here Hybrid.

I’ve posted the following remarks on a different site sometime back but, everyone has a different opinion on ATG’s and parallel squats. I do them both, maybe you can use some of this to your benefit.

Squats and deadlifts are two of my favorite compound exercises.

I incorporate squats in my leg routine once a week. I’m not trying to break any (ego) records, just trying to stay in shape as best I can. When I do my squats I make sure that I do three warm up sets first (w/ a leg press station I have), then I lift the weight off the rack and back up a step or two making sure that I have the bar exactly where I want it, (normally just below the traps) then with a shoulder wide stance, (some use a wider stance) feet pointed a little outward, chin and eyes straight ahead ( I don't look down, by keeping my chin & eyes up it helps me keep my back straight).

I'll begin the squat by INHALING first, then as I proceed down I EXHALE slowly (like a leak in a high pressure pipe). At the bottom of the squat I make sure I do not bounce & make sure my feet are flat and try not to extend my knees beyond my toes, ( sometimes hard to do) as I come back up (pushing off my heels) I'm still EXHALING. It's when I'm at the top of the completed squat that I stop exhaling. Then I either rack the bar or go for more reps. That's the way I do the ATG squat but, that's what feels comfortable for me.

I normally I do 5X5’s. ATG’s up to 200 lbs. Anything over 200 lbs., I go just below parallel (presently, I’m at 270 lbs.). I'm 67 and although, to be honest, at times I may tend to lose strict form even after 3+ reps and since I train alone, if I lose that form that's when I'm afraid I'll just hurt myself. So to combat this I do 5X2's sometimes twice, simply because it allows me to concentrate more on form and recovery. I still get in 10-20 reps. So far, I've yet to have any problems with my knees.

Some people hold their breath throughout the squat (they say it helps support the spine during the squat) but, personally I feel that holding my breath throughout the squat is too taxing on my system. It seems at times I get like a spike in blood pressure. But, again that's me.

Peace

ZackMurphy · 12-29-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hybrid

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I think also the fact that I wear Cross Trainers when I workout might hinder me a bit. I was told to use flat shoes when I squat, but don' have a pair... But all really good suggestions. I'll do alot of 95lb ATG squats next leg day (like 7-8 sets) to burn the legs but get my form down good!!!

Wrestling shoes are great. I use Adidas Sambas indoor soccer shoes. Usually about $30-40.

Really, the only problem with with cross-trainers is that they're soft on the heel (the air soles), so you lose some stability - not that they throw you forward. Olympic-style squat shoes have a very thick heel - forcing the weight forward, but they also have very flexible ankles, so they can sit back a little more.

Hybrid · 12-29-2005, 02:22 PM

I'll bring my indoor soccer shoes to my next workout and see how that goes. I have like 4 pairs laying around my room

**A.FreeRadical** · 12-29-2005, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

Wrestling shoes are great. I use Adidas Sambas indoor soccer shoes. Usually about $30-40.

Really, the only problem with with cross-trainers is that they're soft on the heel (the air soles), so you lose some stability - not that they throw you forward. Olympic-style squat shoes have a very thick heel - forcing the weight forward, but they also have very flexible ankles, so they can sit back a little more.

I just got a pair of high top "gym" shoes. I don't know what they are called, but they are like the canvas/flat rubber soled sneakers that we used for gym class when I was a kid. "Keds"?

I had been using running shoes for my squats. These seem more stable and not as springy.

*

ZackMurphy · 12-29-2005, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.FreeRadical

I just got a pair of high top "gym" shoes. I don't know what they are called, but they are like the canvas/flat rubber soled sneakers that we used for gym class when I was a kid. "Keds"?

Ahhh, Converse "Chuck Taylors". Also good.

**A.FreeRadical** · 12-29-2005, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMurphy

Ahhh, Converse "Chuck Taylors". Also good.

I just looked. Yep, that is what I have. All black. I haven't tried them on a heavy squat day yet. Next Tuesday will be the day.

*

12-28-2005, 10:45 PM	#1
Hybrid IMPC Contestant Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Gibsonia PA Posts: 824 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 13	ATG Squat Question... I've switched from paralell to ATG squats recently, and I'm enjoying them alot more. They hit my quads and lower back alot better than paralell. Here's my questions... 1)I go down smoothly, but whenever I push up I seem to be a little on my toes. Not alot, or unsafely, just my heels a tad bit off the ground. Should I be concerned about this? 2)Should I just go down as if I was going paralell, but keep going down? This is what I do currently, and I'd imagine it's what I'm supposed to do, however, I want to make sure. 3)Sometimes I can't seem to get off the bottom position (you know, where my ass is to the ground, or grass) and I push up but can't get my knees going up. I sometimes take a deep breath and try again and succeed, and it's almost as if I was pumping a quarterback fake (if you get my drift). I'd imagine this is alright, but again, I'm just making sure. Thanks! __________________ If you even dream about beating me you'd better wake up and apologize - Muhammad Ali

12-28-2005, 10:49 PM	#2
EME Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,264 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 51	Your form and strength at the bottom will get better with practice. Make sure you aren't going to heavy until you really get your form solid. Coming forward on your toes is a problem. That usually happens when you are leaning to far forward, or if your back is bent over too much. If you ever have a bunch of weight on the bar and do that, it can be bad. Again, keep the weights low until you can really get that form solid, and keep your heels flat on the floor. The key to proper squats ( and everything else really ) is learing how to do them right at the beginning so that you don't develop bad habits. The weight will come...get the form right now. :nosthumbs - EME __________________ PhysiqueFXonline - Online Nutrition and Training with Michael and Kendra Elias: www.PhysiqueFXonline.com www.MichaelandKendra.com My wife, and IFBB Fitness Pro Kendra Elias' personal site: www.KendraElias.com Proud member of Team ALR: www.ALRIndustries.com

12-28-2005, 10:59 PM	#4
Hybrid IMPC Contestant Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Gibsonia PA Posts: 824 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 13	It's not like a pump to help. I push up from the bottom and I try to get it up, but it just won't go. So I stop at the bottom where I'm real low, wait about 2-3 seconds taking in a big as breath as possible and push up again. Is that still bad? I thought the weight on the toes might be bad. I guess I'll drop the poundages for the next workout and really concentrate on form. It doesn't happen all the time, just usually when I'm really tired. Usually toes are flat for the first 4-5 reps. __________________ If you even dream about beating me you'd better wake up and apologize - Muhammad Ali

12-28-2005, 11:49 PM	#6
Hybrid IMPC Contestant Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Gibsonia PA Posts: 824 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 13	I'd imagine the part where I'm stuck at the bottom would occur eventually once I started going to failure. But I will try to correct being on my toes. __________________ If you even dream about beating me you'd better wake up and apologize - Muhammad Ali

12-29-2005, 04:19 AM	#8
spytech Getting Stronger Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,448 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 36	Another tip: make it a point to try to point your elbows at the wall in front of you. This will force you to keep your back arched and in proper position. __________________ 5'10" - 230 @ 8-9% Status: Getting stronger... 692d/625s Create your own FREE Workout Journal at http://www.strengthandbody.com/ My Lifting Vids Spytech SHSHT: http://www.strengthandbody.com/shsht.html Spytech SHWSB: http://www.strengthandbody.com/shwsb.html

12-29-2005, 12:49 AM	#7
ZackMurphy IronMass Donator Join Date: May 2005 Location: Folsom, CA Posts: 547 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 9	Good suggestions so far. So some small things to add.... To help keep you on your heels, make sure you're looking up - head up, eyes up on the ascent. This helps keep me more upright and from bending forward too much. Also, if you're doing good mornings at all, lay off them for a while. I find they're spectacular for low back strength, but they teach my body to lean forward too much. I would work on light front squats and light back squats for form until this is cleared up for you. Nothing too far forward. And while you're practicing this, work with your foot position a little bit. My feet need to come in substantially when I'm going ATG, compared to a normal or sumo stance for my regular squats. Adjust foot width and toe position until you feel the right groove. Do this with just the bar or the bar and some 25s so you can get a nice feel. I do this every few months just to refresh myself. Just did this on Saturday, in fact, before a squat workout. Usually to find a good foot position, stand "at ease" with your feet at a normal standing width. Then pick up one foot and raise the knee to your chest and set it back down. And leave it there - don't adjust it. Then do the same with the other foot. Whatever position the feet land in naturally - this is your (for 99% of people) comfort zone for ATG/full squats. Some people adjust from there, but that's guaranteed to be a happy place for your hips and knees. It can be an enlightening adjustment to make. I do that with every new client when we start squatting. Just some food for thought.

12-29-2005, 11:16 AM	#12
Hybrid IMPC Contestant Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Gibsonia PA Posts: 824 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 13	Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I think also the fact that I wear Cross Trainers when I workout might hinder me a bit. I was told to use flat shoes when I squat, but don' have a pair... But all really good suggestions. I'll do alot of 95lb ATG squats next leg day (like 7-8 sets) to burn the legs but get my form down good!!! __________________ If you even dream about beating me you'd better wake up and apologize - Muhammad Ali

12-29-2005, 11:57 AM	#13
jram Amateur Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 60 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 6	Hey Hybrid; Lot of good advice here Hybrid. I’ve posted the following remarks on a different site sometime back but, everyone has a different opinion on ATG’s and parallel squats. I do them both, maybe you can use some of this to your benefit. Squats and deadlifts are two of my favorite compound exercises. I incorporate squats in my leg routine once a week. I’m not trying to break any (ego) records, just trying to stay in shape as best I can. When I do my squats I make sure that I do three warm up sets first (w/ a leg press station I have), then I lift the weight off the rack and back up a step or two making sure that I have the bar exactly where I want it, (normally just below the traps) then with a shoulder wide stance, (some use a wider stance) feet pointed a little outward, chin and eyes straight ahead ( I don't look down, by keeping my chin & eyes up it helps me keep my back straight). I'll begin the squat by INHALING first, then as I proceed down I EXHALE slowly (like a leak in a high pressure pipe). At the bottom of the squat I make sure I do not bounce & make sure my feet are flat and try not to extend my knees beyond my toes, ( sometimes hard to do) as I come back up (pushing off my heels) I'm still EXHALING. It's when I'm at the top of the completed squat that I stop exhaling. Then I either rack the bar or go for more reps. That's the way I do the ATG squat but, that's what feels comfortable for me. I normally I do 5X5’s. ATG’s up to 200 lbs. Anything over 200 lbs., I go just below parallel (presently, I’m at 270 lbs.). I'm 67 and although, to be honest, at times I may tend to lose strict form even after 3+ reps and since I train alone, if I lose that form that's when I'm afraid I'll just hurt myself. So to combat this I do 5X2's sometimes twice, simply because it allows me to concentrate more on form and recovery. I still get in 10-20 reps. So far, I've yet to have any problems with my knees. Some people hold their breath throughout the squat (they say it helps support the spine during the squat) but, personally I feel that holding my breath throughout the squat is too taxing on my system. It seems at times I get like a spike in blood pressure. But, again that's me. Peace

12-29-2005, 02:22 PM	#15
Hybrid IMPC Contestant Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Gibsonia PA Posts: 824 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 13	I'll bring my indoor soccer shoes to my next workout and see how that goes. I have like 4 pairs laying around my room __________________ If you even dream about beating me you'd better wake up and apologize - Muhammad Ali