Sholiz

I've been thinking of picking up some wraps for the days I go heavy on leg-press, my knees aggrovate me afterwards and I'm wondering if it's the best-way to keep healthy knees.

Any opinions on this?

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kwyckemynd00

I know that same guy--he's been one of the most helpful people I've ever met! Not only that, but he cracks me the hell up, hahaah.

Anway, here is the beat pullinbig (aka exmgq @ironaddicts) in a video demonstration of how to wrap those knees.

http://ironaddicts.com/Video/kneewrap1.avi

kwyckemynd00

To say the least, eh?

Sholiz

One Q that was brought up a few days ago on my leg press day.

Wrapping decreases the load put on tendons and joints, which then only muscle grows and not tendons/joints so if you ever DO go without wrapping you lose strength and promote injury?

Seems odd to me, but I figure I'd ask.

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Fresch

I have never actually seen anything that says exactly what effect knee wraps do have: does anyone know of this??

Dan

I have never seen anything good, my sportmed doc tells me not to use such things. Like belts, wraps and so on, but them my surgion says do not do deads, squats, standing presses,...

I have a bad left knee do to being run over by a piece of heavy equipment. Doc's say do not use wraps as it restricts muscles and tendons. Earlier this year I thought I was going to get smacked out of the chair for stating I used a back belt. ...I have snese donated mine to the gym.

Pj-Macx

Both of my knees are not the best in the world... but even when I am doing leg presses with heavier weights.. I dont wear any wraps do to the fact that I feel it restricts my movement.. but I do wear a back brace while doing squats because of an injury that I got when I was in high school...

My advice would be that if you can do without a wrap.. then I would go without it... but it also is a personal choice... if you feel better with a wrap then wear them... you are also young enough that your legs and knees are fairly strong unless you are dealing with a previous injury.. but I think you will be fine without a wrap...

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Dan

I agree and I do not think a newbi should be jumping into wraps, belts, ect.. Stay clear of all such things until you get old or nearly killed a few times..

side note... I recently donated my back belt to my gym... so I could no longer use it.

genepool

from what i have seen over the years about wraps is that it forces the patella down onto the joint so there is greater friction underneath, eventually causing pain and inflammation.

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Dan

Never thought of that but it makes sense.

Fresch

Actually, just looking at some recent research, it may be exactly the opposite.

By compressing the kneecap, the surface area that is in contact is increased, therefore the load is shared over a larger area and the load per unit area is decreased.

Pj-Macx

From having previous injuries to knees... compressing the kneecap onto an already injured cartlidge area will only cause more problems.. if the muscles around the knee are good and strong.. being that he is young(Sholiz).. then he should not have to worry about that.. and even when they wrap your knee for you, from an injury.. they do NOT wrap the knee cap... because of the grinding onto the cartlidge.. which can cause further injury..

So in my opinion as stated before.. if you can go without a wrap.. dont wear one..

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Fresch

It is not so simple as that: as I said, compression may increase the surface contact area between the kneecap and the femur, so that the load is shared over a larger area, and the compressive force therefore decreased...sounds odd, but you must remember that on most occasions, only a small part of the kneecap is in contact with the femur. As your knee passes 90 degrees, more patella is in contact, so the load is shared. This has been found for deep squats, where it was always known that the force through the knee was increased past 90 degrees, however as the contact area is also increased at this point, then it appears that the compressive force on the cartilage is decreased.

Most problems with grating and cartilage damage in the knee is where the kneecap is not moving in its correct alignment, so that the forces are transmitted through a small surface area. People with catilage disease and patella maltracking syndrom will report that the most painful knee position is at about 15-30 degrees knee flexion: although the total compression on the kneecap is less, it is being transmitted through a very small surface area at that time.

So, still not sure if knee wraps are a good thing, but at least there appears to be a reason why they may work.

Pj-Macx

This is from bb.com.. it is an article.. not a post...



Wraps have a place in bodybuilding, especially when we're talking about really heavy weights. However, like wrist straps, it's a careful balancing act in which you have to make sure you don't end up getting it in the shorts.

An easy way to boost a squat by, say, 50 pounds is to wrap your knees. However, you're not actually stronger - you're simply able to handle more weight. This can indirectly be beneficial if you're into heavy-duty style training with high weight and low reps--but there's a downside: Your knee joint is not keeping up with the muscular development of the rest of your leg.

The wrap is like a crutch for the knee, making it easier to go through the workout but not exactly developing it. If you take the wrapping-shortcut month after month, your knee joint will remain essentially the same. Then, when you one day try a squat WITHOUT wraps, you're running a serious risk of injury with your muscular power exceeding what your joints can safely handle.

When To Use Wraps

That said, there are times when it is perfectly okay to use wraps. If you've had an elbow injury for example, wearing an elbow warmer is a great idea, as it provides warmth but not the same power-boost as a full-blown wrap. Likewise, when you're trying for one-rep max tests for strength and the like (not recommended, but I know many do these anyway), wraps are an added security measure for stability. However, like with wrist straps, if you choose to use wraps once in a while, you should balance it with non-wrapped training to maintain balance between joint- and muscle strength.

I would suggest that for every workout where you rely on wraps, you should do at least two workouts WITHOUT wraps. The smart thing to do is obviously to time it so that you use the wraps for the heavier, more intense workouts where you need the extra support, and make a point of doing the full movements with strict form for the lighter workouts. Of course "lighter" is a relative term - you should challenge yourself with every workout, and if you use 20% less weights when doing your sets un-wrapped, try to do 30% more reps instead. You get the idea.

What If The Damage Is Already Done?



If the damage is already done, and you have relied on wraps for years, you can ease into the routine by alternating between your usual heavy, wrapped workouts and considerably lighter workouts with a special focus on bringing your joints up to par. For knees in particular, seated leg extensions are a great exercise for putting your knee joints on the fast-track. But like I said - EASE into it.

Be observant and make sure your body can handle the weight before increasing the poundage. Elbows are trickier, but you can most likely do one-arm pushdowns safely (using a handle attached to the upper pulley in a cable-cross machine or the like) while rebuilding your strength.

Safety First

On a side note, a reader once asked why I told him to always wear a weight lifting belt, but to use wraps sparingly. The answer is that the belt is only a safety measure for your back during overhead presses and heavy lifts (squats, dead lifts, military presses etc,) and doesn't actually make it easier to lift the weight nor steal the workload from the muscle group being worked. Just like wearing a glove won't do anything for a bicep curl, a belt won't help push the bar during a military press.

In this case, it is all about the shoulders and the elbow joints, and they have to work equally much whether you wear a belt or not. Wrapping your elbows, on the other hands, directly takes some stress off them, thus interfering with your natural balance between joint and muscle strength as described earlier. As you can see, there's no harm in wearing a belt, whereas wraps enables and even encourages you to exercise your ego instead of your muscles. The conclusion is simple: Go ahead and use wraps, but save them for when you really need them.

Thanks,


That article is written by Matt Danielsson and I got it from bb.com

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Pj-Macx

My whole point is Sholiz is young enough that he should not have to worry about knee problems... so my advice to him stands.. he should not wear knee wraps unless he is going to start power lifting... and needs the stability for just one or two reps... otherwise he is just reducing his joint development, which will not keep up with his muscular development...

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Pj-Macx

I agree... the only bodybuilders that should even think about wearing wraps are powerlifters.. that need the stability...

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Fresch

Would like to see the research that backs up the statements in that article.

Pj-Macx

Well you will have to contact the person who wrote the article.. I gave you his name.. and where the article is...

But just remember you are not giving any research for what you are saying either...

Everything I have said except the article has come from personal experience with knee problems and what docs have told me to do and not to do...

But when it comes down to it... this is about what Sholiz wants to do.. and how he wants to do it.. not whether you agree with me or not.. it is all up to what Sholiz wants and feels like doing..

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Fresch

Powers et al., J Orthop Sports Phys Ther, 2003
In general, tibia rotation during OKCE results in an increase in patellofemoral contact area,
force, & pressure on the ipsilateral facets of the patella (e.g., lateral facet contact during
external tibia rotation), while femoral rotation during CKCE results in an increase in
patellofemoral contact area, force, & pressure on the contralateral facets of the patella
(e.g., lateral facet contact during internal femoral rotation)

Having collegiate women perform a squat with 85% 1 RM, Salem and Powers (Clin Biomech,
2001) found no significant differences in patellofemoral (PF) forces and stresses at 75°,
100°, and 110° knee flexion
Similar to data from Escamilla et al. (Med Sci Sports Exerc, 1998 & 2001), PF forces
increases until 75-80° knee flexion, and then began to level off or slightly decrease
PF stress may not continue to increase >75-80° knee flexion due to PF force being
distributed over larger surface area, which . with knee flexion
These data imply that injury risk to the PF joint may not increase with knee flexion angles
between 75-110°, with the benefit of increased quadriceps & gastrocnemius activity
training at 90-110° compared to training at 60-80° (Escamilla et al., Med Sci Sports
Exerc, 1998)