Carb Depletion / Cycling

**Sholiz** · 04-05-2005, 11:52 PM

How effective (in terms of the last 3-4 percent of body fat say, from 10%) would carb depletion be? My current goal is to get down to 5-7%. I think 5% is quite low, without the help of "other substances". But I should be able to get to 10% "easily", then I would like to turn down to the 5-7 range and see if I can get veins popping, abs bulging, quad separation -- back detail, everything in it's finest so I can maintain that for a period of time so I can learn how my body reacts to it.

I know I'm working on diet, and it's coming along and the Bf seems to be coming off fast and easily (as fast as I can w/o losing muscle -- still staying healthy). But say in the final stretch to 5% ... would this be effective?

I'm Mes/Endo.

**Sholiz** · 04-13-2005, 02:29 AM

TY Allen, EME ... do you have any comments on this? I know you're a natty and get to contest-ready shape and look GREAT.

nuge7076 · 08-23-2005, 10:36 AM

Carb depletion should be dictated by the body whether one should or one shouldn't. 5% is extremely low & is very difficult to maintain. I use to carb deplete in me early years of competing, but as my physique matured I realized based on my body type carb depletion was not for me. I suggest for you to see where your at when you get under 10%. Determine if your physique really needs to carb deplete to have a harder define look to it or whether it does not. There are 2 end result possiblities with carb depletion, 1: coming hard & sharp, 2: coming flat & smooth.

Apootheosis · 08-23-2005, 11:20 AM

if your alluding to UD2.0, thumbs up to that then. I cant figure out if you mean something else.

**powerman2000** · 08-24-2005, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuge7076

There are 2 end result possiblities with carb depletion, 1: coming hard & sharp, 2: coming flat & smooth.

Don't forget the importance of the carb load before a comp if you are carb depleting. Timing is critical as well as the amount of carbs you eat. I should have eaten more than I did for my one and only BB show. I looked better the day after the show cause I ate more when the show was over that night. Its a common mistake, especially for first time bb competitors. Live and learn.

**EME** · 08-26-2005, 11:00 PM

Sholiz,

We really seem to be discussing two different concepts here, so let me go over both, and then you can let me know which angle you are going for.

There is carb depletion, and then there is using a low carb approach to your diet strategy.

A true carb depletion technique, as used by bodybuilders in the last week of contest preparation, really has very little to do with fat loss, and is actually all about setting your body up so that your water is where you want it on contest day, in the muscles and out from under the skin.

A bodybuilder uses the period of carb depletion for one reason, to get his or her body into the physiological state necessary to do a carb load right before competition.

By carb depleting for a period of about 3 days, usually starting about 5-6 days out from a show, and continuing to train, you deplete your glycogen stores in your muscles, drop water, and flatten out. This is not the way you want to look on contest day!

However, when you are in this depleted state, when you begin to take carbs in again, your body will suck them in like a sponge, supersaturating the muscle cells with glycogen. In this unique state, your muscles can store up to 2-3 times as much glycogen as they would normally store. Each gram of stored glycogen pulls 2.7g of water into the muscle cells with it. If this water is in the muscle cell, then it isn't under your skin, where you don't want it.

When done correctly, this technique can produce very dramatic results. It can also fail if you take in too many carbs during your carb load phase and "spill over", or if you don't get fully carbed up and end up flat.
Learning how your body best responds to this technique is the key to doing it correctly.

However, as I mentioned above, Carb depleting and loading is not about losing fat... it's about moving water.

If you are trying to lose fat, Carb depletion isn't really what you want to do.
Rather, you may need to take a low carb diet strategy, depending on how sensitive your body is to carbs and how well it burns fat.

The difference is, you never truly deplete your glycogen stores when using a low carb approach. Long term depletion of your glycogen stores is not condusive to building, or maintaining muscle.

Instead you time your carbs early in the day, and you taper them off as the day goes on to make sure you don't store them.

How few carbs you should take in, if you choose to take this approach, really depends on your body. My personal feeling is that if muscle is a concern to you, you should not go below .75g - 1g carbs daily per pound of bodyweight for any extended period of time.

The other concept that could be used is carb cycling, which is just a cycle of low carb days, followed by a few days of higher carbs.... This generally works the same way as calorie cycling in that it promotes leptin levels to stay elevated, and it prevents metabolic slowdown.

On most carb cycling plans you still should not reach the point that you are actually depleted on your low carb days.

There are a few diet programs out there that promote doing the concept of the final week of show preparation, every week, for an extended period of time. That is, doing a full deplete, followed by a full load, every week.
The old Cybergenics program popular in the late 1980's used this approach.
I don't really feel this is best way to go, as the periods of full deplete can be pretty hard on your muscle tissue and you stand to lose some significant muscle along with the fat.

Leave the full depletion for contest prep, and instead work on determining what level of regular carb intake, combined with training and cardio produces the best fat burning results for your body.

- EME

**powerman2000** · 08-26-2005, 11:16 PM

Great post EME.

Apootheosis · 08-27-2005, 03:10 AM

UD2.0 would be a mixed form of cyclic depletion/loading

Twin Peak · 08-27-2005, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EME

A true carb depletion technique, as used by bodybuilders in the last week of contest preparation, really has very little to do with fat loss, and is actually all about setting your body up so that your water is where you want it on contest day, in the muscles and out from under the skin.

Bingo.

While depletion is good for lypolysis (when done correctly, ala Carb Cycling, CKD, TKD, UD 2.0), lypolysis is not the point of "carb depletion."

Apootheosis · 08-27-2005, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Bingo.

While depletion is good for lypolysis (when done correctly, ala Carb Cycling, CKD, TKD, UD 2.0), lypolysis is not the point of "carb depletion."

Carb cycling didnt yield nearly as good results as ud2.0

Twin Peak · 08-27-2005, 01:52 PM

I am glad you have experimented and found a diet that works well for you.

Apootheosis · 08-27-2005, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

I am glad you have experimented and found a diet that works well for you.

thanks, big fan of your articles at avant

04-05-2005, 11:52 PM	#1
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,992 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 234	Carb Depletion / Cycling How effective (in terms of the last 3-4 percent of body fat say, from 10%) would carb depletion be? My current goal is to get down to 5-7%. I think 5% is quite low, without the help of "other substances". But I should be able to get to 10% "easily", then I would like to turn down to the 5-7 range and see if I can get veins popping, abs bulging, quad separation -- back detail, everything in it's finest so I can maintain that for a period of time so I can learn how my body reacts to it. I know I'm working on diet, and it's coming along and the Bf seems to be coming off fast and easily (as fast as I can w/o losing muscle -- still staying healthy). But say in the final stretch to 5% ... would this be effective? I'm Mes/Endo. __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

04-13-2005, 02:29 AM	#2
Sholiz Soldier In Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,992 Recipes: 3 Rep Power: 234	TY Allen, EME ... do you have any comments on this? I know you're a natty and get to contest-ready shape and look GREAT. __________________ You hear me before you see me, I got King Kong in the trunk

08-23-2005, 10:36 AM	#3
nuge7076 Amateur Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 35 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	Carb depletion should be dictated by the body whether one should or one shouldn't. 5% is extremely low & is very difficult to maintain. I use to carb deplete in me early years of competing, but as my physique matured I realized based on my body type carb depletion was not for me. I suggest for you to see where your at when you get under 10%. Determine if your physique really needs to carb deplete to have a harder define look to it or whether it does not. There are 2 end result possiblities with carb depletion, 1: coming hard & sharp, 2: coming flat & smooth. __________________ FAILURE --The men who try to do something and fail are infinitely better than those who try to do nothing and succeed. -- Llody Jones SUCCESS--The road ahead is paved with bumps and pot holes. Knowing when to advoid these obstacle is the key in reaching your destination.-- Nuge

08-23-2005, 11:20 AM	#4
Apootheosis Pro Stature Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 626 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 10	if your alluding to UD2.0, thumbs up to that then. I cant figure out if you mean something else. __________________ lawlz

08-26-2005, 11:00 PM	#6
EME Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,651 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 55	Sholiz, We really seem to be discussing two different concepts here, so let me go over both, and then you can let me know which angle you are going for. There is carb depletion, and then there is using a low carb approach to your diet strategy. A true carb depletion technique, as used by bodybuilders in the last week of contest preparation, really has very little to do with fat loss, and is actually all about setting your body up so that your water is where you want it on contest day, in the muscles and out from under the skin. A bodybuilder uses the period of carb depletion for one reason, to get his or her body into the physiological state necessary to do a carb load right before competition. By carb depleting for a period of about 3 days, usually starting about 5-6 days out from a show, and continuing to train, you deplete your glycogen stores in your muscles, drop water, and flatten out. This is not the way you want to look on contest day! However, when you are in this depleted state, when you begin to take carbs in again, your body will suck them in like a sponge, supersaturating the muscle cells with glycogen. In this unique state, your muscles can store up to 2-3 times as much glycogen as they would normally store. Each gram of stored glycogen pulls 2.7g of water into the muscle cells with it. If this water is in the muscle cell, then it isn't under your skin, where you don't want it. When done correctly, this technique can produce very dramatic results. It can also fail if you take in too many carbs during your carb load phase and "spill over", or if you don't get fully carbed up and end up flat. Learning how your body best responds to this technique is the key to doing it correctly. However, as I mentioned above, Carb depleting and loading is not about losing fat... it's about moving water. If you are trying to lose fat, Carb depletion isn't really what you want to do. Rather, you may need to take a low carb diet strategy, depending on how sensitive your body is to carbs and how well it burns fat. The difference is, you never truly deplete your glycogen stores when using a low carb approach. Long term depletion of your glycogen stores is not condusive to building, or maintaining muscle. Instead you time your carbs early in the day, and you taper them off as the day goes on to make sure you don't store them. How few carbs you should take in, if you choose to take this approach, really depends on your body. My personal feeling is that if muscle is a concern to you, you should not go below .75g - 1g carbs daily per pound of bodyweight for any extended period of time. The other concept that could be used is carb cycling, which is just a cycle of low carb days, followed by a few days of higher carbs.... This generally works the same way as calorie cycling in that it promotes leptin levels to stay elevated, and it prevents metabolic slowdown. On most carb cycling plans you still should not reach the point that you are actually depleted on your low carb days. There are a few diet programs out there that promote doing the concept of the final week of show preparation, every week, for an extended period of time. That is, doing a full deplete, followed by a full load, every week. The old Cybergenics program popular in the late 1980's used this approach. I don't really feel this is best way to go, as the periods of full deplete can be pretty hard on your muscle tissue and you stand to lose some significant muscle along with the fat. Leave the full depletion for contest prep, and instead work on determining what level of regular carb intake, combined with training and cardio produces the best fat burning results for your body. - EME __________________ PhysiqueFXonline - Online Nutrition and Training with Michael and Kendra Elias: www.PhysiqueFXonline.com www.MichaelandKendra.com My wife, and IFBB Fitness Pro Kendra Elias' personal site: www.KendraElias.com Proud member of Team ALR: www.ALRIndustries.com

08-26-2005, 11:16 PM	#7
powerman2000 The Old Moderator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,281 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 199	Great post EME. __________________ Don't forget to periodize Best BP 507 lbs competitive Best Squat 705 lbs competitive Best DL 650 lbs competitive Guns don't kill people, men who come home early do. My workout log http://www.ironmass.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6247

08-27-2005, 03:10 AM	#8
Apootheosis Pro Stature Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 626 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 10	UD2.0 would be a mixed form of cyclic depletion/loading __________________ lawlz

08-27-2005, 01:52 PM	#11
Twin Peak New Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 20 Recipes: 0 Rep Power: 0	I am glad you have experimented and found a diet that works well for you. __________________ Designer Supplements True Innovation™

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