skelooth

I say nay.

First off, I'm pretty pissed off that you HAVE to have vista in order to get DX10... and I'm sure they'll put some verification crap on DX10 forcing gamers to buy vista

I can't stand that the CHEAPEST version of vista is like 170 bucks.... and you don't even get the aero desktop with it.

It's an absolute resource hog... there is no need for the sys reqs for it to be soo freaking ENORMOUS

I've already seen weird bugs in it... One guy muted his sound and his sound card dissappeared out of device manager (lol hell of a bug!).

and my biggest complaint.... and this is the biggest complaint BECAUSE OF all the previous ones... IT IS FREAKING UGLY. You heard it here first folks... but Mac OS X and Linux with Beryl 0.2 are absolutely gorgeous.... they both make vista look like... well, xp with rearranged icons/options and a new theme.

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TheRock

There aren't any DirectX10 games yet, and probably won't be any for at least 6 months. NVidia seems to be having issues with their Vista Drivers for the 8800 series cards. ATI/AMD are yet to release their own DX10 cards.

If your only reason for upgrading to Vista is to use DX10, I say wait 6-12 months and DOWNLOAD it. Screw giving M$ money just so you can play your games (after throwing $600 at a graphics card). DX10 should be available on XP aswell.

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TheRock

I recommend everyone read this before "upgrading" to Vista:

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
XP vs Vista performance benchmarks
Vista Hates YOU

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skelooth

dude, it is going to be a good year before the DX10 games are out in full force. DX10 hasn't even been released yet. It's more of an issue of 'impending doom'.

PC Gamer's only hope is that openGL creates an equivalent and nvidia cooperates

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skelooth

Windows XP vs. Vista: The Benchmark Rundown | Tom's Hardware

wow that page really sums it up

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Biggie

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builtbeast

Skelooth: No. I see no reason to install it.


I can imagine, NVidia has issues with the drivers under XP.

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LukasJ

If you REALLY REALLY want it check your school IT department. Microsoft actually has many software license agreements with schools. Like XP Pro for $54, Office for $28, Visio, and the .net suite for cheap. It is a way for them to keep the younger generations interested in Windows and programmers is cheap academic versions. My school is set to get Vista Ultimate in April yet to announce pricing but if it is like before I can expect $50-$100 for full version NOT upgrade version.

Personally I think Vista is garbage. My soon to be laptop for programming is gonna be a MAC powerbook. I will have vista, and linux on there only to be used as needed. That is one reason I am going java path as I try to stay away from MS anything anymore. Vista spies more, the drm sucks resource hog. Plus the drm set uses the processor continuously. This thing is gonna seriously drag down laptops.

One other thing of note if you want to take advantage of dual core processors. Only Ultimate, and Business editions are set-up to use them. In these versions the OS uses one core and runs anything else on the other core unless the program is set to use multi-core tech.

Go here and do a search for vista on the best tech news sites I have found.

Welcome to the Inquirer

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Slip out the back before they know you were there
And at the worst you'll see nobody cares
Cos you dont wana be around when it all goes down
Even heroes know when to be scared

...Fort Minor - Slip out the back

builtbeast

M$ has deals like that with a lot of universities. I've seen XP Pro for around $10, and got VS2005 .Net free through Uni. About what they're worth, IMO. Even when Vista is $10 I don't see a big rush to obtain it since, from what I've seen, there are no "enhancements" that will be of any real use.

And ROFL @ Ballmer and the usual M$ spin, this time blaming "piracy" as the reason for slow sales of Vista.

Ballmer blames pirates for poor Vista sales

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skelooth

Lukas, why are you going "java" to stay away from ms? That makes no sense. All programming languages are cross platform. You'd be hard pressed to find one that isn't.

Edit: Asides from VisualBasic which truely is not portable.

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LukasJ

I just don't like ms. I prefer java as it is cross platform such as eclipse tools I really like. I will deal with ms as needed. But java has more platforms (see runs on Mac, Linux, Unix, Windows same code all platforms). In general aside from C, C++ the major languages turning out are java (huge IBM, and such support and soon open sourced (if not already), and C# which is MS only(i believe), and Visual Studio Only. Mono works by it's standard for a C# on linux but can't run without wine and poorly at that by reviews so pretty much only runs on windows. One that actually shows promise if adobe does it right is their flash platform. In an article before they are going into application programming tools for internet, and intranet apps. as it is a fast language designed for networks and distribution much like java was designed for net apps.

Java just has many more competing developers platforms. Also as a side note businesses are looking at java to stay away from ms lock-in. Especially since linux is becoming bug in developing countries, such as china, africa, eastern europe. How can you sell a windows only program in C# or VB to an up and coming economy. If you wait for them to mature someone will take your spot I promise.

Please no one bring up VB. It is not a major language except in small business and MS Office scripts.

__________________
Slip out the back before they know you were there
And at the worst you'll see nobody cares
Cos you dont wana be around when it all goes down
Even heroes know when to be scared

...Fort Minor - Slip out the back

LukasJ

Adobe takes on Java and .NET | Reg Developer

Well as a side point on Mono. C# is Microsofts standard that they can change ECMA or not. If Mono ever becomes too big as to take away from Microsofts raping of developers cash they will change the spec like OOXML to make it impossible for anything else to implement. It is also weird that it has open source use as it programs windows applications albiet for free. That is what makes people more stay away from Mono vs Java/C,C++ in eclipse. Businesses learned in the 80's and 90's microsoft is not a developers partner only sometimes till they enter the market your in then your screwed.

__________________
Slip out the back before they know you were there
And at the worst you'll see nobody cares
Cos you dont wana be around when it all goes down
Even heroes know when to be scared

...Fort Minor - Slip out the back

skelooth

Lukas you move in the wrong circles because you're grossly mislead.

Check out agate.sourceforge.net ... it's a graphics API written in C# that is cross platform. Yes, the game of mine he ported over works exactly the same on winblows as it does on *nix and mac.

C is cross platform, C++ is crossplatform, and both run on more platforms than Java as java is dependent on a virtual machine being written for said architecture and kernel. Even ASM is cross platform amonst same chipsets. Perl, Python, Ruby, all cross platform. MS does not "own" *any* language. The only thing they own is Visual studio (which is a fantastic IDE) and the windows APIs.

So in essence... it is not the language that determines the platform, it is the API. SDL can be used with C++ on 10+ different platforms, where as MFC (.net's predecessor) can only be used on windows. On the flip side, gtk (another windowing toolkit) is cross platform and can be used to make GUI's on once again 10+ different platforms.

Java is a nice language depending on what you're doing, but if you intend on being a programmer you can't just "go" with one language. Each language is like a tool in a toolbox. While Java is a solid language, it's lack of hardware access makes it incapable of embedded systems, device drivers, or any other type of low level code.

Java's strengths without doubt lie within java webstart, it's javadoc tool, and how classes are automatically global within an entire jar/program.

C's strength is it's low level code which allows systems programming to be possible

Things like Perl and Bash excel at system administration scripts, quick and dirty solutions to automation, and simplistic config scripts (allowing for things like makefiles without the actual use of make)

While still things like Prolog and scheme are better suited at Artificial intelligence programming, and recursive problems like maze navigation.

My "specialization" is definitely Perl as a systems scripting language, but the actual list of languages that I am competent with is wide and varied... and that's what keeps throwing a multitude of job offers in my face.

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romanaz

Honestly, I'm starting to dislike Microsoft. Their Vista demo at CES 2006 was pathetic. Just a skin of XP to look like Vista. Sad Sad thing.

MacOS for the win.

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FDU Devils Weightlifting
94kg Weightclass

Best in Competition:
Snatch : 78kg
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Total : 175kg

Best in Training:
Snatch : 75kg
Clean and Jerk : 100





Status :
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My Olympic Lifting Journal
http://www.ironmass.com/workout-logs...tml#post157525

DJohnson

I'm all for MS.

I have a QNX, OSX and a WinXP box in my room. I do work on QNX and OSX when I have to but I much rather use Windows. Windows is just so much more idiot proof that many things take no effort at all and save me time, which I have very little of.

That said I'm not switching to Vista until I have a solid reason and a new computer with DX10. The thing I hate about Vista is you need to buy a new copy every time you make a major computer upgrade. Retarded!

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Height: 5'10.5"
Mar, 2001: 135lbs @ ~14%
Nov, 2004: 245lbs @ ~40%
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BULKING FOR A LONG TIME NOW
Long Term Goal: Over 200lbs @ 8%

LukasJ

see C Sharp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was designed by Microsoft, and spec'd from Microsoft. It may be a standard but ISO does not modify the standard. It was submitted by MS, HP, and Intel. Just like MS's OOXML office format competing with ODF. The spec from Microsoft that is 6,000 pages long and has a list of requirements to use the spec. Like it requires full implementation of spreedsheet format, word, and all file types you can't use just one. So by the time you have that which gee only the office suite has a full implementation. Not to mention they can change it by extensions. MS does have control of the spec they are the main contributer of additions, and modifications. As I said it is thier language developed and implemented in .net specifically/mainly.

Every language has a strong point and weak point. C# is nice I don''t doubt that however any spec primarily set by MS I am wary of for future use other platforms. I mean I may be wrong it works on any platform. I never said I will not learn C# as I am gonna try and learn as many as possible. I am just gonna try and not use MS's some MS products. They already use there OS to transmit an entire profile about your system and programs you use.

You can't get around MS and I do know that I will learn as many languages as possible. I never said I will not learn C# just I will try and focus on any platform besides Visual Studios, Websphere is huge as it's design is just that web programs. Anyways NEARLY every possible language is intentionally designed to feel like C anyways. Once you know that learning other languages in not as bad as it comes to functions. Someone form VB only has problems though. I mean that is why MS invented C# aside from to take on java's cross platform advantage, and to correct some of C++ unforgiving shortcomings. VB was in the whole since programmers stick with what they know. VB may have tried to use everyday words (was novel to come up with) to program but failed since almost every programmer used C, C++ primarily. No comfort zone. C#, Java, I think python. Perl dunno never used. Fortran is not but that was before C along with COBOL has been around forever are similar in set-up to C.

Everything revolves around being like C you change it to much the oldies in programming will not switch. Hence C#, java actually learned that watching VB never take off, MS saw java doing well and added features and made it like C to make it palitable. HP had to head off Sun so it co-sponsered/had some development in it. For making cutting edge programs and future software programmers are a highly stubborn to massive change. Baby steps, baby steps.

I will learn as many as possible hell even flash if it takes off to applications since more and more web based programs are popular as it is what flash excels at. Basically as languages go first came assembler, fortran etc. ATT iinvents C based of U of Cali berkely's B (genius naming). Then C++ adds libraries. the VB changes the game and fails too different. Java like C but slight improvement in size and system protections including one compile many platforms. MS develops C# takes C style to make it usuable (lesson from VB) takes the concepts of Java (platforms, some functions) etc and creates .net . As a counter to Java both nice and both have uses.

PS look at Vista license agreement in vista you buy the licenese but MS owns the OS you only purchase use of software not software itself. how long till they own code you write on the system too. Vista is a clunker I mean if it takes 15 gigs to install and every other system has average of 4-6. Unix, BSD, and the tux have 8 layers of software. XP has 23 vista has more something outrageous like 53 last heard or could still be 23. How much clunky, non-secure, overlapping code do you need to take XP add color and put massive system wide DRM in it.

__________________
Slip out the back before they know you were there
And at the worst you'll see nobody cares
Cos you dont wana be around when it all goes down
Even heroes know when to be scared

...Fort Minor - Slip out the back

skelooth

I don't understand Lukas. MS did not invent Basic. Commodores had Basic interpreters built right in as a quasi command line/os. There were also many other successful languages that came before Java. All MS owns is visual studio. C# is very much cross platform via the mono project.

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LukasJ

Might not have invented it but they tried to popularize it.

also
FAQ: General - Mono


So hence C# is a MS initiative. It is a standard microsoft modifies. MS owns rights to the code and since Mono copies eventually MS can SUE for it's copied potentially patented works.

C# pulling ahead of Java | Reg Developer

to get it more mainstream like win 95 and 98 MS doesn't care who copies like the reason on many versions of 95 all 7's work or all 5' for product keys MS made breaking the key easy to proliferate it's software. MS is very smart this way it's how windows took off then when it is big enough whack. you get windows advantage plan or in this case lawsuit to users of mono. All your code belongs to Microsoft.

__________________
Slip out the back before they know you were there
And at the worst you'll see nobody cares
Cos you dont wana be around when it all goes down
Even heroes know when to be scared

...Fort Minor - Slip out the back

skelooth

You lost me. What does this all have to do with "going java" to stay away from microsoft?

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builtbeast

M$ "designed" C# in typical style, by ripping off Borland language features and IDE. C# was created by bribing Anders Hejlsberg to come to Seattle after he developed Delphi for Borland. The VS 2005 IDE has the same features Borland product IDEs had 5 years earlier, and the Borland IDE was superior to the VC++ environment up until this 2005 release.

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LukasJ

It basically means I am gonna focus on all languages. But emphasis on Java and web based languages. Staying away from MS C# since in the future MS could screw over the standard and sue mono (see C# on UNIX, Linux (especially), BSD) coders. C# microsoft designed to be cross MS platforms. Maybe HP-UX I dunno. It does own the rights to the code methods and concepts maybe not syntax and some basic C functions but many of the little functions I am sure are patented, copyrighted. Even Novell admits it belongs to MS in mono.

Web based programs like google stuff, and such across networks and such are becoming more and more popular. Java is web based designed to be truly cross-platform that is why I am focusing more on Java. I think open sourced it will go farther eventually than C#. If linux takes off more and MS can't use fear and loathing to defeat it say GOODBYE to mono and all your C# programs in mono written in C#. Since that will eliminate some software back to windoze ONLY.

C# is nice MS copies and improves slightly others ideas for sure. I just will not go by a MS only run standard. They play nice then the big stick comes out. So my focus is C, C++, Java and most other "open" programing languages. I think MS will can Mono eventually to reduce programs for linux, and unix varients available. Hence my staying away from C# in the future I think it will become windows only and like I said MONO sued into the ground. Along with programs written using it since there code base is MS design.

Obviously keep eggs in more than one basket but I hope to one day work for like IBM, Sun, HP or something and that means JAVA as that's webspheres base and eclipse and such. Also python etc. etc. Until MS comes out with an agreement like Sun with ODF that basically states they will under ANY circumstances not sue under patent or copyright be wary of C# on other platforms than windows.

So that is why as business platforms are concerned I will go in java focus. I want to be jack of all trades in programming but there are reasons competitors to MS are not coding there main software in C# if its multi-platform. (see oracle, and the likes).

So to sum up I'll use it but until there some protection from MS and the big boys (excluding MS, and windows only software companies) develop large alternative platforms using standard C# I focus java, but have C# skills. MS is not nice. They are a business if they need to pull a plug or 2 to get what they want they will. Java plays nice on all platforms, will stay that way, and your protected using it to code. Linux is starting to boom overseas, it will become more standard, and more programs will be made using open standards. Governments, Schools, Universities, and some home use businesses know that C# may not always run on linux (mono). C# has taken off but so has Java in developing countries. Both are global languages. I just focus on Java since I think it is more future bound than C# because of MS controlled specs. MS always starts good then ruins a product.

__________________
Slip out the back before they know you were there
And at the worst you'll see nobody cares
Cos you dont wana be around when it all goes down
Even heroes know when to be scared

...Fort Minor - Slip out the back

skelooth

If you plan on working for IBM you better start breathing C in your sleep You are really mislead as to what a programming language is. Everything you've typed is rhetoric that has very little bearing in the field programming and computer science. I really think you're moving in the wrong circles. I talk to guys who work for video game development firms, guys with phds, and guys who apply to IBM... IBM is a direct recruiter out of my school, and I live 45 minutes from big blue's original headquarters.

At the end of the day, a programming language is a programming language, and thinking you're escaping something by using java is backwards, because Java is controlled by one single entity. There are 'free' versions but they are not as good. There's nothing wrong with specializing in java, or preferring it.. but don't do it under false pretense.

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LukasJ

I am not just as I said jack of all trades. I do know EVERYTHING but VB revolves around C in design for the most part. You just asked specifically on C#. My school you start with a focus on C that is the main base you have 2 semesters just C and UML. Then you have to learn either C# or Java. But also after the C/C++ classes you have to take a general programming with C like bases (has C#, java, perl, python) a little flavor of each. Then towards the end you can specialize in fields like robotics, scientific computing, games, etc. You can take the other languages but 2 semesters have to be Java or C#. The other language requirements depend on the specialization you take since you have to take 2 specialization paths.

I like C as I did better in that than actual java. (I think it was instructor as why java was a pain he could not teach.). So C is not my problem nor really is java, or C# yet. I have minimal exposure to C# yet I just know the history. One of my instructors is/was a huge programming history buff. Which is why nothing in java got taught well. That man could ramble on the start of C all the way till C# origins, use and why created.

So C is not a problem as that is the foundation at my school for the entire degree. As I said you asked specifically why not C# over java.

I want to drool and program over massive scientific data farms using C and unix/linux variants. the thought of making software for an eventual multi-petaflop machine is programming porn for me. And that so far my friend is not C# programming unless Winblows HPC takes off. Or I might go AI and such I have dreamt of a bluegene/L (peta-flop version) with an AI pulling a skynet self-aware monster. I'd die but in heaven I can triumph and say I did that as millions/billions die. But you know other have dreams too.

__________________
Slip out the back before they know you were there
And at the worst you'll see nobody cares
Cos you dont wana be around when it all goes down
Even heroes know when to be scared

...Fort Minor - Slip out the back

skelooth

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LukasJ

lol

as a side note

Robots could soon be calling the shots - Innovation - MSNBC.com

skynet is coming ohh yes skynet is coming

All you life belong to skynet.

I just hope when I make it I can have good face recognition so I will be spared and made supreme ruler. Only fatties allowed will be powerlifters.





First target the extreme Evangical Christians, then fatties, then the rest as needed.

__________________
Slip out the back before they know you were there
And at the worst you'll see nobody cares
Cos you dont wana be around when it all goes down
Even heroes know when to be scared

...Fort Minor - Slip out the back

DarkFalcon

skelooth

:scared:

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antihero

hahahahha at df.

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